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- From: rmcintosh@kcp.com
- To: xml-dev-digest@ic.ac.uk
- Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:34:34 -0600
Also check out IBM's XML parser for java at www.alphaworks.com. It is
supposed to be pretty fast.
Rob is correct about Sun's not being open source, but that is only because
it is an early release at this time and not a 'shipping' product yet. I am
currently testing with Sun's at the moment and find it fairly easy.
As a side note to using XML instead of RMI, I found that quite interesting
because I may end up doing the same thing for a short time due to certain
restrictions placed upon me, and other developer's where I work, on using
certain application protocols (RMI, CORBA, etc). Anyway, I wrote a class
that takes a java object, which in my case is a "business object" and
creates an xml document for it. It works recursively in that if an object
is a container for others, for example an invoice contains line items which
contain products, etc., then it will work through all of those objects
also. I haven't tested it extensively yet, but it works. It does not at
this time create a DTD ,mostly because I don't need one for what I am
doing, but I plan on adding DTD support.
Robert McIntosh
owner-xml-dev-digest@ic.ac.uk on 01/19/99 08:00:09 PM
Please respond to $SENDER@ic.ac.uk
To: xml-dev-digest@ic.ac.uk
cc: (bcc: Robert McIntosh/ASFMT)
Subject: xml-dev Digest V1 #222
xml-dev Digest Wednesday, 20 January 1999 Volume 01 : Number
222
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Rob Schoening" <rschoening@unforgettable.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:09:30 -0800
Subject: RE: Ptr to Fast Well-Formed XML parser (Java)?
> Would someone remind me where a page to commercially available (usable
> in a commercial environment - free or not) XML parsers is?
Check out the early access of Sun's XML package. It's on their Products &
APIs page I believe. It's not open source, but I suspect that it will be
well supported. Since Microsoft is so close to DataChannel now, I don't
think that they can afford to let this market slip through the
cracks...especially with M$ pushing their new XML data typing standard
(can't remember the name at the moment).
> (BTW, it's looking to me like XML and Java are entirely suitable for
> ecommerce environments. At this point I see XML as a nice open
> alternative
> to RMI for some of my work and see the possibility of better
> performance for
> certain aspects of what I'm trying to do - but that starts to
> stray from all
> of what RMI really does do which I don't appear to need for these
> purposes.)
Personally, I think that there is some real opportunity for innovation
here.
If there was an XML-based spec for serialization and invocation, I think
that it might be possible to implement an IIOP-ish protocol using XML.
This
would be really interesting, IMHO, since it would allow the document and
component models to converge. CORBA, EJB, and DCOM tend to be rather
heavyweight ($$$) in deployment. But if the client could be pared down so
as to require little or no client-side code for certain transactional
systems, things could get really interesting. For straightforward
deployments, XML over HTTP (or even SMTP) could have compelling value.
Imagine if you could take a DTD and build a server side component to
process
it. If you could apply translation to build an HTML or PDF form, the end
user could be tied in to the back office without the need to develop custom
software. Groupware allows this now, but if you could cut out that layer
of
complexity and have the browser speak directly to the middleware, without
the need to write application specific code, the benefits could be
tremendous. After all, groupware breaks down at the borders of
organizations...at exactly the point where EC begins.
Just a thought...
There is an XML-RPC spec out there, but to my mind it misses the bigger
picture. Might be a good stepping stone though.
Rob
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------------------------------
From: "Rick Jelliffe" <ricko@allette.com.au>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:33:31 +1100
Subject: Re: XML - NG
From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
>At 07:03 PM 1/17/99 +1100, Rick Jelliffe wrote:
>>The Desparate Perl Hacker (DPH) is certainly a good class of user for
>>XML to support. But being a DPH in a commercial company is probably a
>>sign of management or technical incompetence somewhere.
>
>I couldn't disagree with the that any more. One of the major wins in
>using XML is that you can put existing data to work for new,
unforeseen,
>purposes. One good way to achieve this is with the use of script-ware
>level tools.
We are not disagreeing! I am not saying that scripting languages are
bad.
I said the DPH is a good class of users to support.
I am merely saying that
* desparation
* Perl, and
*hacking
are not benchmarks of competence, especially in combination. For
example,
in Perl it is easy to write unmaintainable programs. Without management
or
technical discipline to enforce coding guidelines Perl encourages or
enforces
hacking, IMHX.
>Scripting languages, such as perl, python, Omnimark, Frontier, etc,
>are often the right tools for the job.
Yes. I have used OmniMark for 6 years, and highly recommend it.
Rick.
ricko@gate.sinica.edu.tw
I assume you're aware that
>pretty well every one of these now has a real XML processor and
>really handles XML syntax correctly. -Tim
>
>
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------------------------------
From: "Rick Jelliffe" <ricko@allette.com.au>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:42:56 +1100
Subject: Re: DTD vs DCD vs Schema
From: Steven R. Newcomb <srn@techno.com>
>The important thing is to go forward, and to avoid going backward,
>with respect to the set of semantics that are expressible using DTDs.
Personally, I don't think that compatability with what DTDs can model
should be any constraint on a schema language, at least as far as
element
content models.
The current content model syntax is
* terse
* easy to read and write
* functional for a wide class of documents
* standard and well-understood
* part of XML
* fragment-friendly (SGML's global inclusions and exclusions
have been removed)
I would much prefer the schema system to assume to existance of a
DTD, and provide the missing parts. For example,
1) a set of data types for attributes and elements
2) use XSL patterns to assert that if one pattern is found,
then another pattern must exist.
The second in particular gets us out of the content-model approach
and into a "partial validation" approach which is more in tune with
namespaces.
Rick Jelliffe
ricko@gate.sinica.edu.tw
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------------------------------
From: David LeBlanc <whisper@accessone.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:31:14 -0800
Subject: RE: Ptr to Fast Well-Formed XML parser (Java)?
Darned if I can remember where, but I think I surfed past someone doing
such.
Maybe it could be called Xorba? :-)
Dave LeBlanc
At 06:09 PM 1/18/99 -0800, Rob Schoening wrote:
<snip>
>Personally, I think that there is some real opportunity for innovation
here.
>If there was an XML-based spec for serialization and invocation, I think
>that it might be possible to implement an IIOP-ish protocol using XML.
This
>would be really interesting, IMHO, since it would allow the document and
>component models to converge. CORBA, EJB, and DCOM tend to be rather
>heavyweight ($$$) in deployment. But if the client could be pared down so
>as to require little or no client-side code for certain transactional
>systems, things could get really interesting. For straightforward
>deployments, XML over HTTP (or even SMTP) could have compelling value.
>
<snip>
>Rob
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------------------------------
From: Joel Riedesel <jriedese@jnana.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:02:36 -0700
Subject: Re: Ptr to Fast Well-Formed XML parser (Java)?
Are you referring to the Coins work? (That might be a bit
more than what you're thinking of as that's more like serialization
of Java objects into XML - if I recall correctly.)
This would actually be quite easy to do right now.
In the server environment that I work in, we have our web server
embedded in our Java server environment. That enables us to
deploy our server with servlets without requiring non-technical
people to figure out servlets, web servers, etc.
We could continue down that road and use HTTP and XML for all
of our communication quite easily at this point. However, for
some other reasons I'm not ready to go to that step (almost
entirely performance related... our architecture has plug in
processing code that needs to operate very fast...).
(However, to back-peddle just a little, we'll probably offer
multiple APIs for some of our architecture, that allows just this
capability.)
But, the point being that this is doable today (in my opinion) and
without a lot of effort. Throwing XSL into the mix, and now you've
really got an open modular system for the Web.
David LeBlanc wrote:
>
> Darned if I can remember where, but I think I surfed past someone doing
such.
>
> Maybe it could be called Xorba? :-)
>
> Dave LeBlanc
>
> At 06:09 PM 1/18/99 -0800, Rob Schoening wrote:
> <snip>
> >Personally, I think that there is some real opportunity for innovation
here.
> >If there was an XML-based spec for serialization and invocation, I think
> >that it might be possible to implement an IIOP-ish protocol using XML.
This
> >would be really interesting, IMHO, since it would allow the document and
> >component models to converge. CORBA, EJB, and DCOM tend to be rather
> >heavyweight ($$$) in deployment. But if the client could be pared down
so
> >as to require little or no client-side code for certain transactional
> >systems, things could get really interesting. For straightforward
> >deployments, XML over HTTP (or even SMTP) could have compelling value.
>
- --
Joel Riedesel
Jnana Technologies Corporation
mailto:jriedese@jnana.com
303 805 8275
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------------------------------
From: David LeBlanc <whisper@accessone.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:10:02 -0800
Subject: Re: DTD vs DCD vs Schema
After perusing comp.text.xml, I was reminded that xml is a proper subset of
sgml and thus whence came dtds etc. I guess it would be hard to do away
entirely with dtds and retain that relationship.
My question was originally prompted by a desire to make provision in (ok,
yet another) xml parser (in C++) i'm starting work on for future
developments wrt dcd/schema etc. Maybe I can make the dtd parser pluggable.
Seems to me that the below idea of something complementing dtds rather then
replacing them is a good one.
Sincerely,
Dave LeBlanc
At 01:42 PM 1/19/99 +1100, Rick Jelliffe wrote:
>
>From: Steven R. Newcomb <srn@techno.com>
>
>>The important thing is to go forward, and to avoid going backward,
>>with respect to the set of semantics that are expressible using DTDs.
>
>Personally, I don't think that compatability with what DTDs can model
>should be any constraint on a schema language, at least as far as
>element
>content models.
>
>The current content model syntax is
> * terse
> * easy to read and write
> * functional for a wide class of documents
> * standard and well-understood
> * part of XML
> * fragment-friendly (SGML's global inclusions and exclusions
>have been removed)
>
>I would much prefer the schema system to assume to existance of a
>DTD, and provide the missing parts. For example,
> 1) a set of data types for attributes and elements
> 2) use XSL patterns to assert that if one pattern is found,
>then another pattern must exist.
>
>The second in particular gets us out of the content-model approach
>and into a "partial validation" approach which is more in tune with
>namespaces.
>
>Rick Jelliffe
>ricko@gate.sinica.edu.tw
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------------------------------
From: "Rob Schoening" <rschoening@unforgettable.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:32:58 -0800
Subject: RE: re Naming and reference
Thanks for the info.
Any thoughts as to the best way to embed a message digest and/or signature
into a document without disrupting the DTD?
Rob
> For CBL (see URL in my sig) I've used URNs to identify documents.
> In the scenario you describe, every party that may need to find the
> document by its URN has already received a copy of it, so the only
> resolution of the URN required is to look in the system's local
> registry of URNs and find the local identifier under which the
> document has been stored.
>
> YMMV.
>
> regards, Terry Allen
>
>
>
> Terry Allen Veo Systems, Inc.
> Business Language Designer 2440 W. El Camino Real
> tallen[at]sonic.net Mountain View, Calif., 94040
> Common Business Library - available at http://www.veosystems.com/
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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>
>
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------------------------------
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?B?lWyTYyCQTIjqmFk=?=" <shinichiro.hamada@toshiba.co.jp>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:36:27 +0900
Subject: RE: How 2 output tags att with XSL
Mr.Ken, thank you for your reply.
>>BTW, you seemed to use "call msxsl" dos command for debugging xsl
behavior.
>>I don't know it. I want to debug xsl too, i don't have that command.
Where
>>can i get it?
>>
>>>T:\FTEMP>call msxsl test.xml test.msxsl test.htm
>>>T:\FTEMP>type test.htm
>
>There was a 5-line script posted on the XSL list as follows:
>
> var data = WScript.CreateObject("Microsoft.XMLDOM");
> var style = WScript.CreateObject("Microsoft.XMLDOM");
> data.load(WScript.Arguments(0));
> style.load(WScript.Arguments(1));
> WScript.Echo( data.transformNode( style.documentElement ));
>
>There is a command line environment for scripting called the Windows
>Scripting Host available at:
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/management/wsh.htm
I see! Very convenient! This help me very much. Thank you.
And Mr.Glassbox, thank you for your advice.
Regards.
- --
Shinichiro Hamada
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------------------------------
From: James Clark <jjc@jclark.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:38:56 +0700
Subject: Re: Ptr to Fast Well-Formed XML parser (Java)?
David LeBlanc wrote:
> James Clark has both C and Java parsers available. Freedom of use might
be
> subject to your making your source available if you redistribute. Read
his
> (Mozilla) license.
> http://www.jclark.com/xml/
My XML parser in Java (XP) isn't under the Mozilla license: it's under
the same license as SP, Jade.
My XML parser in C (expat) is under the Mozilla license. The Mozilla
license requires you to make available the source only for any changes
that you make to the expat source files.
James
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------------------------------
From: Lars Marius Garshol <larsga@ifi.uio.no>
Date: 19 Jan 1999 09:55:13 +0100
Subject: Re: Ptr to Fast Well-Formed XML parser (Java)?
* Joel Riedesel
|
| Would someone remind me where a page to commercially available
| (usable in a commercial environment - free or not) XML parsers is?
You can look here:
<URL:http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~larsga/linker/XMLtools.html>
As far as I am aware, this is the most complete collection of XML
parsers anywhere.
If you're going to keep switching parsers I would take a close look at
SAX, which can make that job easier.
| Barring that, I'm really looking for an extremely fast XML parser
| for well-formed documents (not valid - no DTD). [...] (In java.)
Have a look at XP, Lark and AElfred. They are all very fast.
- --Lars M.
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------------------------------
From: Michael.Kay@icl.com
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:33:25 -0000
Subject: RE: XML Component API
> The SAXON framework seems well suited for doing XSL-like
> transformations,
> but doesn't solve the problem of combining different XML processing
> components into a single computation - at least, it doesn't
> seem to have
> have any advantage over the SAX interfaces in this very
> specific regard.
You're right: I've been struggling this week trying to implement
stylesheets
using SAXON, which requires multiple XML processing components, and it's
not
easy. SAXON is good at producing multiple outputs from one input, but
multiple inputs (files or views) is more difficult. If anyone has any
suggestions, please let me know! I've started looking at MDSAX to see if
that offers any inspiration: perhaps it will, when I understand it better.
Mike Kay
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------------------------------
From: Michael.Kay@icl.com
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:36:32 -0000
Subject: RE: XML Component API
> > I've recently been trying to implement an XSL subset using SAXON and
have
> > realised that the XSL processing model requires the document to be
built
in
> > memory, even though 90% of useful applications don't. For an XSL API,
> > therefore, I think you can forget any idea of an event-based approach.
> >
> > Mike Kay
>
> That has not been my experience. I have not had any problem with
spitting
out
> processed XSL Output to SAX events. Things could change, but for now I
have not
> found any reason why you can't use DocumentHandler as an interface for
delegating
> processing of XSL output.
>
> Tyler
>
Sorry, I wasn't clear and you misunderstood me. By "the document" I meant
the input document to XSL, not its output. For the output document, yes,
you
are right.
Mike
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------------------------------
From: didier@cln46ae.der.edf.fr (Didier BOLF)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:40:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Ptr to Fast Well-Formed XML parser (Java)?
> Would someone remind me where a page to commercially available (usable
> in a commercial environment - free or not) XML parsers is?
>
> Barring that, I'm really looking for an extremely fast XML parser for
> well-formed documents (not valid - no DTD). We're using XML for our
basic
> API now and performance is a tad more important now. (In java.)
Hi.
Last year in May, Mike Kay made a parser benchmark with a simple SAX 1.0
application. The bench was between AElfred, Lark, MSXML, xml4j and XP and
at the time XP was the fastest. Perhaps he could do the benchmark again?
Best regards.
Didier Bolf.
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------------------------------
From: Terry Allen <tallen@sonic.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:16:05 -0800
Subject: RE: re Naming and reference
Rob Schoening wrote:
| Any thoughts as to the best way to embed a message digest and/or
signature
| into a document without disrupting the DTD?
My approach has been to send it along with the document in a
multipart MIME message.
regards, Terry Allen
Terry Allen Veo Systems, Inc.
Business Language Designer 2440 W. El Camino Real
tallen[at]sonic.net Mountain View, Calif., 94040
Common Business Library - available at http://www.veosystems.com/
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------------------------------
From: "Ogievetsky, Nikita" <nikita.ogievetsky@csfb.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:49:53 -0500
Subject: Xpointer Entity
Is it (or will it be?) possible to use XPointer as Entity reference?
This will allow me to generic element content, changing depending on
children/ancestors surrounding... (so close to real life...)
Of course it is dangerous as a source of circular references...
- - so it will be an extra burden for a parser.
Nikita Ogievetsky.
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------------------------------
From: Michael.Kay@icl.com
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:38:43 -0000
Subject: RE: Ptr to Fast Well-Formed XML parser (Java)?
> Last year in May, Mike Kay made a parser benchmark with a
> simple SAX 1.0 application. The bench was between AElfred, Lark, MSXML,
> xml4j and XP and at the time XP was the fastest. Perhaps he could do the
> benchmark again?
It so happens I did some recent measurements (different data file) as
follows:
SAX parsers:
xp 4387 ms
oracle 7862 ms
xml4j 7771 ms
sun 3736 ms
DOM implementations:
sun 9634 ms
xml4j 11677 ms
oracle 9784 ms
docuverse 10685 ms (using xp parser)
So SUN is looking pretty good at the SAX level, but at present its
licensing
terms are rather restrictive. For DOM products, they're all remarkably
close.
I think that the oracle and ibm SAX parsers are slower because they build a
parse tree even if you don't need it. Can anyone confirm this?
I was intending to complete the survey by running other parsers such as
aelfred, lark, datachannel, silfide; but either I've had problems getting
them to run, or I just haven't found the time.
Unfortunately, once again, I'm using a confidential data set, in this case
one from a client.
Sorry! Its size is 690Kb, and its internal structure is quite rich.
The figures are obtained directly from the com.icl.saxon.Renderer main
program within SAXON, selecting different parsers by editing the
ParserManager.properties file. So you can easily run the same tests on your
own data files. This program includes the basic SAXON processing (which
builds a stack and selects an element handler for each element based on its
type), but it uses a null element handler for all elements.
Mike Kay
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From: John Cowan <cowan@locke.ccil.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:38:29 -0500
Subject: XSchema is now DDML
XSchema is now called DDML, and is available as a W3 Note
at http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-ddml with the help of Ingo Macherius
of GMD.
- --
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From: Maneesha Jain <Maneesha.Jain@Ebay.Sun.COM>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:33:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Questions on DCD
Hi,
I have following questions on DCD. Any help would be a great help.
1)
If I define an ElementDef type "A", and then a ElementDef type "B"
which could contain two elements/members of type A. How do I define that ?
Can I do the following:
<ElementDef Type="A">
<Element>foo</Element>
</ElementDef>
<ElementDef Type="B">
<Element> Ist</Element> (first member of type A)
<Element> Second</Element> (second member of type A)
</ElementDef>
<ElementDef Type="Ist" Model="Data" Datatype="A"/>
<ElementDef Type="2nd" Model="Data" Datatype="A"/>
Or is the value of attribute "Datatype" reserved to what is defined in the
spec
?
2) Wish <Element> could allow <Description> just like <ElementDef>. Is it
possible ?
4) What is the syntax for defining multiple inheritance ?
5) Where is the DTD for DCD ?
6) Is there any site containing couple of examples for defining DCDs ?
Regards,
Maneesha
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From: Charles Frankston <cfranks@microsoft.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:34:03 -0800
Subject: RE: Questions on DCD
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maneesha Jain [mailto:Maneesha.Jain@Ebay.Sun.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 4:34 PM
> To: petsa@us.ibm.com; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk; tbray@textuality.com; Charles
> Frankston
> Cc: Maneesha.Jain@Ebay.Sun.COM
> Subject: Questions on DCD
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I have following questions on DCD. Any help would be a great help.
>
> 1)
> If I define an ElementDef type "A", and then a ElementDef type "B"
> which could contain two elements/members of type A. How do I
> define that ?
By inheritance (defined in Appendix B of DCD). But even there you don't
get
to pick arbitrary members of type A. If B inherits from A, it inherits the
entire content model. B may extend A's content model, but not remove
things
from it.
>
> Can I do the following:
>
> <ElementDef Type="A">
> <Element>foo</Element>
> </ElementDef>
>
> <ElementDef Type="B">
> <Element> Ist</Element> (first member of type A)
> <Element> Second</Element> (second member of type A)
> </ElementDef>
>
> <ElementDef Type="Ist" Model="Data" Datatype="A"/>
> <ElementDef Type="2nd" Model="Data" Datatype="A"/>
>
> Or is the value of attribute "Datatype" reserved to what is
> defined in the spec
> ?
The meaning of Datatype is as defined in the spec. Although there are
sensible ways to think about extending this concept to user defined
datatypes, DCD does not do so.
There are three distinct concepts in DCD: use or reference, inheritance (in
the appendix at least), and datatypes. You are mushing them all together.
An ElementDef is not a means for defining a "datatype", it is the means for
defining the content model of an XML tag. The value of the Element
property
must match the value of the "Type" property of some ElementDef. So:
<ElementDef Type="A" Model="Data"/>
<ElementDef Type="B" Model="Elements" Content="Closed">
<Element>A</Element>
</ElementDef>
means that <B><A>some text</A></B> is legal. <B>some text</B> is not. By
contrast inheritance gives us:
<ElementDef Type="A" Model="Data"/>
<ElementDef Type="B" Model="Mixed" Content="Closed">
<Extends Type="A"/>
<ElementDef>
which means that <B>some text</B> is legal. <B><A>some text</A></B> is not
because <B> doesn't identify any elements that it may contain.
>
> 2) Wish <Element> could allow <Description> just like
> <ElementDef>. Is it
> possible ?
Lacking a precise DTD, it is hard to say whether DCD allows this or not.
There is no question 3.
>
> 4) What is the syntax for defining multiple inheritance ?
<ElementDef Type="B" Model="Mixed" Content="Closed">
<Extends Type="A"/>
<Extends Type="C"/>
<ElementDef>
The content model of "B" is simply the concatenation of the content models
of "A" and "C".
>
> 5) Where is the DTD for DCD ?
No DTD was written for DCD. It would be messy to do so because per RDF
rules, properties may be either attributes or element values.
>
> 6) Is there any site containing couple of examples for defining DCDs ?
None that I know of aside from what's in the paper, perhaps one of the
other
authors knows of some.
>
> Regards,
> Maneesha
>
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