xml-dev - Re: ANN: XML and Databases article

[Daniel Veillard <Daniel.Veillard@w3.org>]

> Daniel said:
> ------------------------------------------------
>  When faced with "groves" I still have a serious problem with both
> points:
>    - Show me a definition so that I can understand the term and
>      underlying concept clearly enough that an implementation
>      time is spend not collecting and reading papers but implemening
>      something well defined.
>      Even reading http://www.prescod.net/groves/shorttut/ I still can't
>      get a clear definition of "what is a grove precisely".
>      Not at the concept level, but a implementable definition say
>      on top of the XML infoset (for XML documents).
> 
> Didier says:
> ------------------------------------------------
> I agree with you on that point. Actually groves are defined as abstract
> entities and there is no common API to groves (each implementer ca define
> its own interface).

  Ok, having followed the http://www.netfolder.com/DSSSL/ link and
looking at http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/topics.html#groves
The following seems at least a clear and concise definition:
  In HyTime ISO/IEC 10744:1997 "3. Definitions (3.35)": graph
  representation of property values is 'An abstract data structure
  consisting of a directed graph of nodes in which each node may be
  connected to other nodes by labeled arcs.

Ahhh ... and

  GROVE - "Graph Representation of Property Values."

 Ok, this becomes clearer.
And the picture clarify it even more !

  http://www.cogsci.ed.ac.uk/~ht/grove.html


> Daniel says:
> -----------------------------------------------
>    - Show me the code. Not that there is none, I just don't know.
>      Is there a program available in source code, that I can run
>      on say a laptop in front of a novice (but programmer kind)
>      audience (say a Gnome developper's group) allowing me in 3 mn
>      to show a "grove" in action and what it does for them.
> 
> Didier says:
> -----------------------------------------------
> Easy, just use the "Linux of the markup technologies" aka OpenJade. The code
> is freely available, several developers around the globe are already
> improving it each day. The source code is stored on a CVS server and like I
> said, is freely available. OpenJade includes the SGML grove plan but the
> grove is transient (i.e. resident on the heap). This is a stand alone module
> that could be reused in other code. The grove is available as a DCOM object
> or a C++ object. You may make your own implementation if you want or change
> the interface. For more information:
> http://www.netfolder.com/DSSSL

  Ok, coincidentally i'm doing something similar it seems on top of my XML
parser except that I based my node structure on a DOM point of view:

   http://rpmfind.net/veillard/XML/

  Is there a clear distinction between the model exposed by a DOM API
and a grove, I can't even find a single DOM reference in 
  http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/topics.html#groves

 Looking at Henry graphic, it's nearly 100% equivalent to what I build
so I'm wondering, but I remember people pointing out that those are
different.

    thanks for the pointers,

Daniel

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