xml-dev - Re: XML, MicroSoft, Torquemada and Comics (was RE: XML in .NET - moretha

[mark hu <mark@fintrack.com>]

Hi, Anton:
    It's very impressive story - and again it's a story only, from my own
point of view: first of all - I DO NOT THINK THAT IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO TALK
THIS KIND OF MENTAL THINGS HERE, and also according to your rule: "'BE PURE,
BE VIGILANT, BEHAVE" - I think that really mean we should all do our own job
instead of just commenting others, OK, let's put in this way - if XML is
designed pure and vigilant - why in these days after SOAP ( protocol for
XML) be W3C standards - lot of big players jump in and try to show their own
efforts to support this new standard, if we all adpot SOAP and implement our
own web services and so on, where's the PURE XML gonna be - just NO WAY ...
and back to the real life, I do not think any one of us can solve all the
daily problem just using PURE XML, and let's take a look at Java and Java
VM - different vendors have their own version of VM - I do not think all the
VMs available today have the same standards, and that's fine for us - cause
which ever VM we are using is our own business, as soon as it's good and
meets our goal, I do not really care it's MS, SUN or IBM ... Again, MS is
very good at pushing new stuffs in a very fast speed - I do not think you
should follow MS, Bill Gates DOES NOT SAY - HEY, FOLLOW ME OR NO BREAD - on
the other hand, as a developer we have our own choices about what we'd like
to work on and where we'd like to work at, well every one knows - this is
America, you can do whatever you want - no one can force you, e.g. one of
our product is based on Java/CORBA/XML/HTTP - is running under NT with
assistance of a ISAPI dll and JRUN for Java components - we do not have to
use COM/MTS, because our client does not want to, and surely we can even get
rid of NT and runs on Unix, AGAIN, I DO HOPE THIS IS A TECHNICAL SITE - so,
please do not put too many personal stuff here, I do not like politics - and
I bet you all are, cheers.


mark hu
646-872-7341 (cell phone)
"breath,open up eyes and think"
----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Channing <AnthonyC@101Ltd.com>
To: <xml-dev@lists.xml.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 8:11 AM
Subject: XML, MicroSoft, Torquemada and Comics (was RE: XML in .NET - more
thanjust SOAP?)


> Hmm, maybe an adolescense spent reading SciFi comics
> wasn't wasted after all.  It seems the philosophy presented
> the story of Nemesis and Torquemada II (who incidentally
> was apparently future incarnation of the original anyway,
> and whose other incarnations included Hitler) is actually
> quite relevent to discribing the interaction of XML and
> MicroSoft.
>
> Torquemada (like his medieval namesake) is a force for
> conformity and order.  He is presented as an evil despot
> who controls the human race.  He is the 'hate villian' of
> the story.
>
> Nemesis is a strange alien creature with a horned and
> hoofed 'diabolic' appearance, with strange powers and
> chaotic and unpredictable ways.  Although the main
> protagonist, and opponant of the 'hate villian', Nemesis
> is not himself the hero (there is none).  He is merely
> the balancing force and in his own way just as evil.
>
> Now in general computing terms, MicroSoft can be likened
> to Torquemada, because they are increasingly attempting to
> control the entire computing world (and lets face it, how
> many of us do not rely on atleast one MicroSoft product?).
> Bill Gates has said it would be much easier if there was
> just one company.  In other words he wants everyone to
> conform to the MicroSoft ideal.
>
> Those who refuse to conform are not physically harmed,
> but MicroSoft do attempt to erradicate all competition
> so that your non-MicroSoft products will no longer be
> supported.
>
> In MicroSofts eyes, rival companies are the Nemesis',
> the unpredictable and impure aliens that threaten to
> currupt the computing world.  Users of rival products
> are considered 'deviants' (well okay, maybe or maybe
> not in quite so many words).
>
> But what about XML?  Where does it fit in?  XML is a
> new standard.  In a sense it has its own purity and
> sense of deviance.  MicroSoft have not yet fully
> complied to XML, and so their efforts are considered
> 'deviant'.  This is why 'BE PURE, BE VIGILANT,
> BEHAVE' is a good moto for the XML community.
> (Even if it is a quote from a fictional evil dictator)
>
> BE PURE
> XML will become devalued and meaningless (although
> not useless) unless everyone sticks to pure XML.
> If the goal of XML is to improve the intercommunication
> of products within the computing world then it will
> only work if the rules are followed.
>
> BE VIGILANT
> Attempts to deviate from the pure specification
> will be made at various times.  Especially when
> XML is still new and not fully implemented
> across all apps and platforms.  MicroSoft in these
> terms can be considered the biggest threat to
> conformity, especially in a stage where they have
> only half implemented XML into their products.
> I think we need to respond in a way that both
> encourages MicroSoft to continue in their
> progress towards full implementation whilst
> simultaneous put preassure on them to understand
> that the semi-implementation is unnacceptable.
> If they begin to lag behind the rest of the market
> then its probably time for a sterner approach and
> a blanket boycott of their products.
>
> BEHAVE
> We must work together, creating mutually accepted
> XML standards.  We must encourage companies to
> not only use XML, but create universal XML standards
> between similar applications.
>
> To use Joshua's Catholic analogy, MicroSoft are the
> Roman Catholic company, claiming to be the one
> true standard all must follow.
>
> XML is a bit like Unitarian Universalism, or Agnosticism,
> in that it provides a technology of belief that allows
> all of the Religions (Companies) to define their belief
> structures in ways that allow them to intercommunicate.
>
> Er...
> Have I been going on a bit?
>
> Anton
> 101Media Ltd
> http://www.101ltd.com
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sebastian Rahtz
> > [SMTP:sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk]
> > Sent: 27 July 2000 09:10
> > To: joshuaa@microsoft.com
> > Cc: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> > Subject: RE: XML in .NET - more than just SOAP?
> >
> > Joshua Allen writes:
> >  > > > different Torquemada. yours was real, this was in a comic
> >  >
> >  > Are we talking about the Torquemada who organized the
> >  > torture and burning at stake of anyone who strayed in the
> >  > slightest bit from the liturgical dogma of the Catholic
> >  > specifications?  Especially those people who claimed to
> >  > follow the dogma but had previous religions that might
> >  > taint their adherence to the new specs?
> >
> > good try, but no, not the same Torquemada. check out back copies of a
> > comic called "2000 AD" from the early to mid 80s.
> >
> > can I just say (seriously) that the way you join in on on this list
> > *does* do good for Microsoft?
> >
> > sebastian
>