Re: Feedback on Web Services (RE: Web Services stuff - fyi)

[Dave Winer <dave@userland.com>]

1. Has anyone implemented a SOAP based RPC or otherwise synchronous callable
style interface in production?

Absolutely yes. We have a fully SOAP-scriptable content management system
called Manila. Here are the docs on the scripting interface.

http://www.xmlrpc.com/manilarpc

It's also scriptable via XML-RPC. It's not a toy, we have deployed a
workstation writing tool called Radio UserLand that ties in to Manila
through the SOAP interface. All Manila sites, tens of thousands of them, are
programmable through this interface.

We have another app, xmlStorageSystem, which ties all the Radio users
together. It is also not a toy.

http://www.soapware.org/xmlstoragesystem

Thanks for focusing on substance over hype. We have been doing substantial
work in this area since 1998.

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Amit Bhatiani" <amit@invertica.com>
To: "Michael Brennan" <Michael_Brennan@allegis.com>; "'Edd Dumbill'"
<edd@usefulinc.com>; <xml-dev@lists.xml.org>
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: Feedback on Web Services (RE: Web Services stuff - fyi)


> Could not agree more on the general hype surrounding web services. Here
are
> more specific questions to Michael, Edd and the group in general that
might
> elicit more specific answers.
>
>
> 1. Has anyone implemented a SOAP based RPC or otherwise synchronous
callable
> style interface in production?
> 2. Has anyone implemented a UDDI registry that contains something more
than
> toy entries?
> 3. Has anyone thought about stateful XML-based services?
> 4. Has anyone thought about transaction semantic across XML based
> connections over HTTP?
> 5. What do "Web Services" mean for EAI type solutions?
> 6. What do "Web Services" mean for message brokers (like MQSi)?
>
> I have more burning questions, but these seem loaded enough for now.
>
> --amit
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Brennan [mailto:Michael_Brennan@allegis.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 8:19 PM
> To: 'Edd Dumbill'; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> Subject: Feedback on Web Services (RE: Web Services stuff - fyi)
>
>
> Certainly the hype syndrome for web services has been great, but no more
so
> than that for XML itself, IMO. I think the hype surrounding XML in general
> has been far greater -- and all too often, much farther removed from
> reality. We've passed the peak of the hype curve with XML, though, and see
> less of the most outlandish claims these days, while we still have a ways
to
> go before we hit the peak of the Web Services hype curve.
>
> We have strong interest in Web Services here at Allegis. We have for some
> time supported an integration API based entirely upon XML over HTTP. We
also
> use XML fairly extensively for other purposes, as well, though most of the
> IT staff at customer/partner organizations who must use our integration
APIs
> don't. Typically, they are XML novices, and we have to provide
considerable
> guidance on not simply our own integration APIs, but basics on how to deal
> with XML APIs (DOM, SAX) and how to properly transmit XML over HTTP
> (something which there is a scarcity of good technical info on, and which
> the overwhelming majority of developers don't know how to do correctly).
> Developers who are not already steeped in XML or similar markup languages
> tend to find working with XML to be an unnatural and unfamiliar model.
They
> also tend to trip over issues such as character encoding; very few
> developers understand character encoding issues, and how to deal with them
> properly when transmitting XML over HTTP.
>
> One of our solutions to this challenge was to write our own Java-based
> toolkit for dealing with our integration API. Part of that is just utility
> classes that transparently deal with the HTTP protocol specifics and
> character encoding when sending XML. Part of it was to introduce a
> data-binding scheme that enabled the Java developer to deal with a more
> familiar paradigm -- setting properties and invoking methods on Java
objects
> -- rather than having to learn XML APIs.
>
> Web Services will let us go further down this latter road, while
leveraging
> more third party tools. The metadata standards that are part of Web
Services
> are a great facilitator to data-binding and code-generation techniques
that
> mask the XML and protocol specifics beneath more familiar programming
> language constructs -- in the same way that EJB masks the specifics of
> CORBA/RMI/whatever and lets the programmer focus more on business logic.
In
> addition, the RPC mechanisms such as SOAP-RPC can similarly let developers
> work with a more familiar paradigm even without relying upon the
additional
> metadata for code generation or data-binding. However, our core
integration
> APIs will still be XML-based, so those who are more comfortable dealing
with
> the API at that level will still be able to do so.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Edd Dumbill [mailto:edd@usefulinc.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 3:58 PM
> > To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> > Subject: Re: Web Services stuff - fyi
> >
> >
> > On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:12:13PM -0700, Jeffrey I Condon wrote:
> > > Here's some stuff from developerWorks and alphaWorks if you'r
> > > interested in Web Services.
> >
> > I'd love to get some feedback on who actually on this list is
> > interested
> > in (and/or deploying) web services, and what aspects of them you find
> > interesting/useful.
> >
> > I've been in the skeptical camp for a while (largely due to
> > overwhelming
> > hype syndrome), but I'm very curious as to the scenarios this stuff is
> > being deployed in -- and furthermore, if deployers of web services use
> > XML in any other capacity, or pretty much stick to the protocol stuff.
> >
> > -- Edd
>