OASIS Mailing List ArchivesView the OASIS mailing list archive below
or browse/search using MarkMail.


Help: OASIS Mailing Lists Help | MarkMail Help



   RDDL flame. Summary. ( Long, but the last one )

[ Lists Home | Date Index | Thread Index ]

Dear Julian, and Jonathan.

The first part of the letter is for Julian and the second
part is for Jonathan.

I agree that taken out of context - my insulting  letter is
bad ( and it is also exceptional for me in many senses ).

However, I'm not afraid of somebody discovering
that letter in the future, because first of all, it would
not be the first thing that people will find about me,
if entering my name into Google and also,
the context of the thread would be available.

(Some things would be kinda hidden,
but smart person can get the details
pretty easy and I don't care about stupid
persons, investigating my past.)

The archives of Internet contain many letters from
me that contain my mistakes (plenty of, including
conversational ones) e t.c, but I'm not afraid if
somebody would browse those letters, because
I have nothing to hide. I make mistakes, sure.
Everybody does.

I also agree that I should start flaming immediately
after receiving the first insults or not to flame at all,
that would be more consistent comparing to what
I've done, but as this thread should show to the person,
who may try reading it from the beginning -
I first tried to find any constructive way to resolve the
problem in a constructive way (and a problem is
slightly bigger than a few words  in some paper),
but I failed with that.

Then I started flaming. I would not flame any
longer. It has no point.

I also agree that I overreacted to this RDDL situation,
because it is really nothing special. The game played
with RDDL has been played many times before.

RDDL was derived from some of my ideas.

As this thread shows, RDDL works and always
has been working against my ideas, but  my name
is listed in a 'contributors' part.

I'm not a contributor to *such* a thing and for several
times I've asked for my name to get removed from the
RDDL website, but it is still there.

Not only that request was ignored, but almost every
constructive question from me has been ignored
by the editor of RDDL Spec (which was derived
from some of my ideas, sorry to repeat that ). The first
two letters (not just one) from the Editor of RDDL
specs were a plain insult with zero constructive content.

This thing stinks, sorry. For the fourth time I'm  asking
to remove my name from RDDL website and I wish
that'l made it.

Now after thinking for some time, I need to make some

I came to this list long time ago, as a naive
developer. I tried asking some stuff ( I was very polite
in the beginning ) to get educated by experienced
SGML and XML developers and gurus who are
working in such a very important area as XML.

I'm not kidding. That's the way it was. Somehow
most of the relevant answers I got - I got them
off-list ( funny, but for this thread this is also
true -  the most important information came off-list).

That looked very strange to me, because in most
other developers lists, the off-list correspondence
is  not the most interesting thing, but the discussion of
technical problems on-list - that was the most important

Also, I should say ( and I really think that ) that
there are many interesting and experienced people
reading XML-dev ( I know that some of them
make better developers than myself and I know that
some of them are plain brilliant ). I also know that
sometimes some interesting conversations started
to happen on-list, but then I noticed that somehow most
of those open-minded and constructive technical
conversations usually mutate into something very
strange and non-constructive.

Actually, it takes one moron to kill a reasonable
conversation. There are some morons on any list,
but with XML-dev it is more subtle, because the
number of morons is actually low. And I don't think,
for example, that Jonathan is a moron. My point
was to tell  that nice, productive conversations
happening on-list are very easy to kill.

And I see that they get killed here all the time, sorry.

The RDDL thing was the final drop, because it
made everything crystal clear for me. I've spent
years on this list. I would miss some people
whom I found on this list ( including some
new posters ), but :

This is my last letter to this list. The next would
be a request to unsubscribe. I think I'm done
with XML. It stinks. It is dead. Literally.

I would like to say 'thank you' to many good
people who will continue trying to do their best
to clean the mess that would be constantly failing
on their heads ( that's for sure ) but I ( finally )
see a little technical value in 'XML' as a family
of technologies. XML is a social stuff. It is for
politicians. Friends don't let friends to use
XML tools.
( <comment>That was a joke</comment> ).

Not that I would stop producing some XML stuff
- I have plenty things to write -  but I would not
be subscribed to XML-dev, so I think that
I would announce the next versions on
SML-dev and maybe will not announce at all,
just publish on a website.

As to RDDL 'replacement'. I have all the
core structures ready ( No XLink, sorry, just
plain XML anybody can understand ) and it
should take a few days to complete it.
It *can not* be used to 'improve' the RDDL,
because RDDL *can not* be improved for many
technical reasons that I've described.

When I finish, I'll send the URL to Dare and Nicolas
(because in my opinion their understanding of the
problem is the clear one. I think that happens
because they have not spent a long  time on
XML-dev list. I am serious.)

Then they may publish the URL on XML-dev so
that people would see how the namespaces puzzle
may be addressed in a way different to RDDL.
I would let the community decide what to do with
that, because I have no desire to build a website or
anything for that solution, because the namespaces
are irrelevant in my XML universe, so that solution
would be an illustration only.

In my opinion, the 'namespaces' problem is :

'How can one  ( human or computer ) locate some
resources on the web, that would be relevant to
some namespace - in a simple way'.

Maybe RDDL is positioned as a solution to this
problem, maybe not - it is hard to tell. I tried asking
for a long time. They're not really answering
(still). 'Polite silence' to really important questions
is a style in XML world. I'm happy, that I would not
need to keep hitting this polite (dead) body.

All the best.

Dear Jonathan,

I greatly respect your specialty, because I know
how hard it is to become a professional in the area
of your expertise and how much time does it take.
However, I believe that any open-minded person
should understand that being professional in one
complex area does not make the same person
to be equally professional in *every* other complex

My point is that if I would take some of your ideas
in *your* area and then I would start preparing some
standard for *your* area and after *you* would call
that standard a 'joke' -  I will  start questioning *your*
professional capabilities ( I wish you follow the logic
here, if you don't - try re-reading your first letters
and the first part of this letter ) - so I guess that
if we'd  play this situation other way around,
your reaction would be comparable to mine.

I mean that you would ask me what the hell did I
did before in that area? And please don't try to say
that it will not be that way. That would be strange
of you if it would not be that way.

Somehow, when in comes to computers, people start
assuming that long years of experience are not required
to write / design software.

In my opinion, the things that you're doing on
your primary job are much more important and
influencing for human beings, than RDDL thing.

Unfortunately,  in a couple of years that may change.
I think that participation in such an influencing
technology ( as RDDL could possibly become )
should imply the appropriate level  of experience
in writing computer software.

That means that I may apologize for some wording,
( sure there is a subjective factor, it appears that
I just got tired of XML-dev ) but I think that
because of your actions, the core scenario of this
flame was unavoidable because of  some objective
reasons as well.

I wish you good luck with your social activity
with RDDL (which is important thing in XML world)

However, as I've said - I still see no  technical value
in RDDL ( I see problems, because RDDL increases
the namespaces noise ) and my suggestion would (still)
be not to try pushing  it for writing distributed
java applications.

It may start killing people occasionally, like some ill-designed
technologies do already.

Documents are usually peaceful. Programs are not.

All the best.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian Reschke" <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
To: "Paul T" <pault12@pacbell.net>; "Nicolas Lehuen"
<nicolas.lehuen@ubicco.com>; "Jonathan Borden" <jborden@mediaone.net>;
"Leigh Dodds" <ldodds@ingenta.com>; <xml-dev@lists.xml.org>; "Joe English"
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 10:48 AM
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Re: What a namespace is.

> Paul,
> I can only hope for you that when at some point in the future somebody
> to find out more about *you*, he/she will not  come across *this* posting.
> Julian
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul T [mailto:pault12@pacbell.net]
> > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 7:10 PM
> > To: Nicolas Lehuen; Jonathan Borden; Leigh Dodds; xml-dev@lists.xml.org;
> > Joe English
> > Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Re: What a namespace is.


News | XML in Industry | Calendar | XML Registry
Marketplace | Resources | MyXML.org | Sponsors | Privacy Statement

Copyright 2001 XML.org. This site is hosted by OASIS