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   Re: [xml-dev] Out of topic or out of interest?

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On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 23:44, Mike Champion wrote:
> I see the SOAP/REST threads as a preview of a rather profound challenge to 
> the way SGML/XML people have seen world for the last 6-8 years.  SOAP/WSDL
> are not simply XML applications, but they are the enabling technologies for
> an approach to using XML without even knowing you use it; someone using
> the Google APi never sees an angle bracket anywhere!  I'm not sure if this
> is good or bad, but I'm glad I know that SOAP and WSDL aren't just ordinary
> XML formats that people use with ordinary XML tools.  I'm not sure that would
> have come to widespread awareness if the debate took place elsewhere.

I don't think Eric's proposed that XML people should put their heads in
the sand and ignore waves of people who want to hide the angle
brackets.  I think he was saying something more to the effect that we're
aware of the challenge but might want to focus on markup itself, heck
even to strengthen markup against these waves of challengers.

I don't think we've begun to scratch the surface of what can be done
with angle brackets, old though the topic may seem.

> I'm very glad that the REST debate is being conducted here.  I have come to 
> a much fuller appreciation of the attraction of the "WSDL-generated SOAP
> RPC" paradigm for the typical developer outside the XML community, and 
> an appreciation for the (apparent) fact that they are trying to have it
> both ways -- getting the power of XML and the Web without actually using it
> in the ways that provide the power!  We'll see if that's true or not ...

I guess I follow too many lists and weblogs. I see the debate being
conducted everywhere, and have to admit a frequent desire for the WS
people to take their toys and go elsewhere if they don't like how
they're being received.  I've said elsewhere that the WS community and
the XML community have very different values, and I'm not convinced
they're compatible.

I appreciated Visual Basic the first time I saw it - that didn't mean
that I wanted to use it or talk about it in depth. I'm not that
discussing Visual Basic on a C/C++ list makes sense, even though VB is
written in C/C++ and is arguably designed to provide the power without
the pain.

> In a sense these are unrelated to the serious business of "angle brackets",
> but so is the philosophy, the annual silly doggerel contest, the rants against
> the W3C, and all the other aspects of this list that make it rather unique.  

At least the W3C in some specification sense controls the future of
XML.  Web Services (IMHO) doesn't.  The doggerel, well, whatever.

> Anyway, get with the program! XML ain't about angle brackets any more, it's
> about Information Items [duck]

Infomation Items are still a layer or twelve closer to markup than RPC
calls.  They may be contributing to the decline of civilization as we
know it [ducking], but it's awfully hard to argue that they aren't
Simon St.Laurent
Ring around the content, a pocket full of brackets
Errors, errors, all fall down!


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