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   RE: [xml-dev] the infoset is two infosets (or even three?) [was: Re: [xm

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  • To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
  • Subject: RE: [xml-dev] the infoset is two infosets (or even three?) [was: Re: [xml-dev] linking, 80/20]
  • From: "Bullard, Claude L (Len)" <clbullar@ingr.com>
  • Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:50:59 -0500

I know, Wayne. That was sarcasm on my part.  We can't make any of this 
work without the support of the W3C, and they can't make any of this 
work without our support.  That is the reciprocal relationship that 
makes up the essential contract of our communities.

On the other hand, intelligence emerges in the form of small 
groups that bind members and sometimes bind groups via the 
shared understandings of common members .
These bindings have a space/time property so one doesn't expect 
eternal fidelity, but one can expect working relationships.  Not 
new news.

We really can do much here to sort out issues for the TAG. 
We have to respect them and they have to respect us and 
most of the time, we will achieve that by recognition that 
we share members.  We are an ecotone.  Communications are 
hot in ecotones.  Again, not new news.  Still, we also 
have differences and that is also essential.  If we didn't 
have these, we would not evolve nor would the artifacts 
we create such as the web evolve.

Tim correctly points out where XML-Dev efforts have resulted 
in systems with real lifecycles, eg, SAX.   But we are only 
occasionally a design team.   We are other things as well so 
both we and the TAG have to respect that those artifacts which 
we share a focus of attention over are not inclusive all the 
time and in every case.   The TAG has eyes and ears here to 
sort those out.  That's a respectful way to do it.  In short, 
not only do our technologies evolve, but our understanding as 
well.  That is the best sign of communal intelligence.

Patience, tolerance, compassion, energy -> wealth.  The 
wealth of this community is its knowledge and its mutual 
respect.   The practice of greatest value will be to 
learn from the TAG how best to inform the TAG without 
unduly restraining our own practices.


From: Wayne Steele [mailto:xmlmaster@hotmail.com]

>From: "Bullard, Claude L (Len)" <clbullar@ingr.com>
>Ummm... so XML-Dev has to figure this out before the W3C listens?  Huh?
>If that is all we have to do, then what do we need the W3C for?
>Great.  Aaron, care to propose the elimination of the default?
>Any others?  We can vote and get right to changing the code.
>No waiting.

Sadly, this is not something that can be easily resolved by changing some 
code and getting back to work.

The only solutions I can imagine are of the consensus building, best 
practices type. Even if most XML-DEVers were to adopt a set of these, 
nothing would prevent the W3C (or anyone else of status) from peeing in our 
pool by embracing the very things that we have decided should be forbidden.

You, Me, Simon, and a hundred other people could all agree: "You should 
never create an XML Grammar that beflurbs a splunge." But if the W3C comes 
out with a new recomendation that works splunge beflurbing into the very 
core of its meaning, all we have done is sow more confusion.

   "so XML-Dev has to figure this out before the W3C listens?"

This might be true, and wouldn't be so bad. But if we figured it out, would 
the W3C listen? (my money says no)

I see no future in XML-DEV developing best practices (beyond out own 
edification), unless and until the W3C has a serious effort to determine 
best practices (I'm sure they would be happy to be informed by XML-DEV 
experiences) and enforce them upon working groups. Maybe the TAG can do 
this. The fact of the TAG being so overloaded with work shows how much of a 
need exists for this kind of thing.


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