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   RE: [xml-dev] Inside Redhell: Microsoft XAML Blogger Round-Up

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No, it represents interests just as any other does.  MS is a
multitude of internal groups, each vying for a place on that 
desktop.  I am as aware of the standards that have been created 
in this field as any person on this list.  I've seen good and 
bad, timely and untimely, risky and safe.  Microsoft is quite 
sincere about their technology.  They are sincere enough to 
produce the best innovations they can, to cherry pick and 
to provide their customers what is needed: value.

MS has yet to say, but I suspect they will take XAML, fully 
proven as they did with C# to a standards organization. We 
can influence that decision and the choices made in those 
organizations.  Or not.

I am a believer in democracy and openness.  I am also aware 
that I do not live in a democracy, but in a republic.  I 
am a student of history and know that democracies are unstable 
forms of governing in some historical settings and that 
despots, particularly the form inherited from the eastern 
countries by the Roman empire, thrived.  I know that the fall 
of that empire was not due to its form of governing but that 
the rulers did not see the danger of having large city 
populations that took product from the countryside without 
themselves being productive and that the instrument of their 
domination, the Roman legions, became less and less Roman 
and more dominated by the local populations whose allegiance 
to Rome was indefinite and weak and that the cost of 
maintaining these while simultaneously maintaining very 
large unproductive city populations eventually sapped 
the strength of the empire by depleting its resources 
without refurbishing them.  I understand that those 
societies that choose openness have always had to face 
up to the challenge of closed societies that could 
cherry pick their work.  I also know that there are 
no designs presented from the groups making so much 
noise at the moment that are truly original, so it 
comes down to fielding and implementation.  Those are 
the market forces.  If you think history teaches or 
informs, study it well.  It predicts XAML will succeed 
not because of conspiratorial forces, but because it is the 
surface language for a complete integrated architecture 
even if it is not itself terribly novel.

We can make intelligent choices.  One of them could be 
to pursue a standard for rich client applications in a 
legitimate international standards organization instead 
of a self-serving consortium.  The standard exists. ISO ISMID. 
But it is friendless.

Perhaps you might want to look at it and ask yourself why, 
then review your history and philosophy.  It isn't as clear 
as one might propose.  Perhaps the trouble at our door is 
not of Microsoft's making, but our own lack of clarity and 


-----Original Message-----
From: Bedros Hanounik [mailto:Bedros.Hanounik@tarari.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 1:55 PM
To: Bullard, Claude L (Len); Michael Champion; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Inside Redhell: Microsoft XAML Blogger Round-Up

Actually, it's OK for a group to ignore standards, because it represents
many companies. It's NOT OK for Microsoft to ignore standards, because
it's a single entity. 

It's amazing how people with such intelligence don't figure it out!

Go and read history books. Dictatorship and fascism is bad. Democracy,
fair and open competetion is good.

It doesn't matter how great and innovative XAML is; It's useless if it
doesn't incorporate feedback from major players in this field, and gives
the control over it's future to the industry.

Intel introduced PCI bus in early 90's and instead of imposing it on the
industry, they created PCI group and that group set the PCI standards.
Nowadays, everyone is using PCI bus even non-intel platforms.

If Microsoft is really sincere about their technology, they would follow
the same path; but they won't. 


disclaimer: my personal opinions, don't necessarily represent my
employer's opinion.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bullard, Claude L (Len) [mailto:clbullar@ingr.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 11:10 AM
To: 'Michael Champion'; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Inside Redhell: Microsoft XAML Blogger Round-Up

Why should it be ok for groups to ignore 
standards but not ok for Microsoft to ignore them?
Maybe we made the rules that Microsoft plays by. 
Maybe throttling the ISO efforts in favor of the 
W3C and killing off good designs in favor of bad 
ones has finally come home to roost in our own 
backyards. Maybe.  We can't say otherwise, so it 
will just be more name calling, more aggressive 
kicking of your competition, and a world that 
cares less and less about the quality of products 
and more about where they are manufactured and 
who gets the money.  China is going off on its 
own.  Do we plan to take them on over it?

We live in the hot ecotone between competition 
and cooperation, innovation and standardization. 
It takes intelligence to navigate among those 
worlds and foresight and timing.  Chrome was 
already out there before XUL and XForms.  The 
Longhorn architecture did not spring up overnight. 
MS may stick to their own knitting but they do 
have a way of showing up with the complete article 
ready to become productive with.  Did you ever 
stop to think the market may not really want a 
patchwork of languages?  We will find out in the 
next three years.

Maybe it is time to be done with conspiracy theories. 
We can work with MS or against them, but the winners 
or losers will be our customers if we bet wrong. 

No Plan = No Product = No Buyer = No Sale = No Pay.


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Champion [mailto:mc@xegesis.org]
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 11:42 AM
To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Inside Redhell: Microsoft XAML Blogger Round-Up

On Nov 12, 2003, at 11:27 AM, Bullard, Claude L (Len) wrote:

> 3.  Standards are still valuable but we have to
> learn to listen and time their emergence.  Rich
> client experimentation has gone on since at least
> the early nineties using the same family of design
> approach as has been later used in XUL and XAML.
> XUL and XAML validate that early work and among
> all of these, are confirmation of TimBL's principle
> of independent invention for it.  That means it is time
> to begin or renew serious and legitimate standards
> work but with the understanding that the software
> companies will not slow down their development
> efforts.

I agree with the sentiment, but don't think it applies here.  We *know* 
that HTML is very limited for UI purposes, and that there is a lot of 
innovation going on to fill in the gaps.  That is the premise behind 
XForms, XHTML 2.x, SVG (to some extent), and CSS.  What strikes me is 
how little Microsoft has supported these efforts in their products.  An 
IE 7 with XForms, SVG, and CSS compliance would alleviate a lot of 
these problems, and serious MS participation in XHTML to focus that 
effort on what they see as real customer needs would help too.  But 
there are no signs of that happening, so the protestations about how 
limited the standard stuff is seem hollow.

  Maybe this is all about geeks running wild and doing Cool Stuff 
without regard to the network effect that drives the Internet, figuring 
that the rest of the world can catch up at its own pace.  The 
alternative hypothesis that it is about market strategists running wild 
and figuring that it's time to move to step 3 in "embrace, extend, 
extinguish" can't be dismissed, however.  What's more, I see virtually 
no effort to offer evidence and arguments to alleviate such concerns.

> This is BrowserWarsRedux unless we
> are wise and patient and determined to do the
> right thing.

Uh, no, the browser wars are over.  Microsoft won.  This is the 
Occupation Force specifying that the roads and bridges must be rebuilt 
in a manner that accommodates their heavy equipment. <duck>

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