RE: [xml-dev] SQL5

[Len Bullard <len.bullard@uai.com>]

True.  Better to get them in wide use first.  The risk there is the
social/business networks becoming predatory; hence one might want to applay
for any legitimate patents first.

len

From: Jonathan Robie [mailto:jonathan.robie@redhat.com] 
 
Another possibility would be to consider an open source project, such as 
an Apache project, around this. Not the same thing as a standard, but 
often a good way to get middleware technologies out.

Jonathan

Len Bullard wrote:
> For what it's worth, Dmitry, I concur with Jim's assessment of your
chances
> at standardization and that if you persist in labeling it "SQL", this
> misnomer will reduce your market acceptance.
>
> However, there are companies building 'simplification' software over the
> base layer systems in frameworks such as ASP.   Perhaps your product will
be
> better positioned in Rapid Application Development toolkits.   It is not
> always the case that these are tools used by 'non-professional'
programmers.
> They are used by professional shops with harsh delivery schedules that
> justify less 'to-the-metal' programming by the superior look, feel, and
> reliability of the RAD output even if there is some performance penalty or
> simplifying assumptions.   A professional knows that most limitations of
> such tools can be coded around where necessary; otherwise, why bother with
> object-oriented base classes?
>
> Given the tendency of the cat herds, these toolkits are also a real boon
to
> the development managers.
>
> len
>
>
> From: Jim Melton [mailto:jim.melton@acm.org] 
>
> Dmitry,
>
> You have sent me separate email, which I will try to answer 
> today.  But I also want to respond publicly to your public message to 
> Jonathan.
>
> After reading the several email messages that you have sent publicly 
> and privately on this subject, I think I now understand more about 
> your goals and I therefore have a suggestion that I hope is helpful.
>
> I do NOT believe that you are describing a "database language" that 
> is at the same level as SQL.  I think that you are confusing many 
> people by insisting on calling your language "SQL" 4, 5, 42, or 
> whatever.  The letters "SQL" are not copyrighted or trademarked, but 
> I think you are doing yourself a great disservice by using those 
> letters for your language.  Calling your language "SQL5" could be 
> interpreted as saying "the next generation of the SQL language after 
> SQL4 (also known as SQL:2003)".  But your language has little to do 
> with SQL as it has been standardized.  I urge you to change the name 
> so that people don't get confused and dismiss you because of the 
> incorrect implication.
>
> What I think you are describing instead is a language in which a 
> certain class of "programmers" (not full-time IT programmers) can 
> write applications that use XML directly and use an SQL database 
> "behind the curtain".  I haven't proven this, but I suspect that your 
> language can be compiled into standard SQL.  The key to my 
> understanding your language this way lies in your statements that the 
> value is "to delete gaskets like php, etc." and "XML (actually HTML) 
> for i/o", and so forth.
>
> I submit that you are actually defining a middle-ware language that 
> is itself a kind of gasket but that gives a view of the database that 
> (in your opinion, at least) is easier for nonprofessional programmers 
> to use than SQL is.
>
> I have asked around and talked to a number of database people about 
> your language.  The response, 100%, is that nobody to whom I have 
> spoken believes that it is interesting to pursue as an extension to 
> (much less replacement for) SQL.  I suspect that you have very little 
> chance of finding an organization under which you will successfully 
> propose your language to be a standard for database languages.
>
> However, if you describe it differently, as a middleware language 
> that interfaces with standard SQL databases, then I think you might 
> have a better change at finding an appropriate organization.
>
> Hope this helps,
>     Jim
>
> P.S., I am astonished at your belief that the "market is 
> monopolized".  If you mean "the database market", then I should point 
> out to you that there are three Very Large companies competing in 
> that space (IBM, Oracle, Microsoft), perhaps a dozen smaller 
> companies (e.g., Hitachi, Sybase, Ingres, Mimer), and at least a 
> half-dozen open source projects (e.g., MySQL, PostGresQL), all 
> competing with one another.  Can you justify calling a market with 
> three Very Large companies (competing bitterly with each other) and 
> an additional 15 to 20 products (competing in various niches of the 
> market) as "monopolized"?  That doesn't fit my definition of a monopoly!
>
>
> At 10/4/2007 03:02 AM, Dmitry Turin wrote:
>   
>> Jonathan,
>>
>> JR> goal is to have compatibility or interoperability within some market
>> To my mind, market is monopolized and mythologized,
>> it has very less common with needs of people.
>>
>> JR> - Why can people work together better if they use the technology you
>> JR> define?
>>   It must be admitted, this is diversion against programmers.
>> Purpose is to delete gaskets like php, etc.
>> Then directly communication between user agent (email client, browser,
>> ftp-client - any agent in general before choice of protocol) and DBMS
>> will be possible, and applied specialists will capable to automate
>> their activity (SQL is accessable for them) without IT-specialists.
>> Since proprietary UA (SqlPlus.exe, PgSql.exe, iSql.exe) and common UA
>> (listed above) behave identically.
>>   As you see, XML (actually HTML) for i/o, processing of tree are
>> secondary and infered from choice of HTTP and of finding tendency to
solve
>> interoperability problem among heterogeneous UA by XML.
>>
>> JR> - What part of that should be implemented by a number of products
that
>> JR> do not use any of your technology or software at all?
>> (1) lay-ing XML into tables, using FK [1].
>> (2) extraction records into XML, using FK and determination.
>> (3) sending/receiving via HTTP
>> (4) saving of accepted file (picture [2]) in any place
>>     (at least in filesystem) and to save HTML-link (value of @src)
>>     for file in record's field
>> (5) sending of file upon HTTP-request according to @src
>> (6) mixing of DML and 'a.b.c.d >>' in one procedure/trigger.
>> (7) construction 'order by ... start by ... limit ...' to send next
portion
>>
>> [1] applied specialists must thought-out scheme to avoid several FK
>>     
> >from one table into other. This restriction may be overcame
>   
>> by plug-in for browser, which will send 'determination'
>> http://html60.euro.ru/site/html60/en/author/forsql40_eng.htm
>> http://sql50.euro.ru/site/sql50/en/author/determination_eng.htm
>> [2] content of file is invisible now in browser.
>> To overcome this without programming (heavy for users),
>> it's possible to install plug-in into browser
>> http://html60.euro.ru/site/html60/en/author/inputpic_eng.htm
>>
>> P.S. Following real life, processing of tree in database is desirably,
>> but not necessary. Removal of gasket is the main.
>>
>> JR>  Who else will
>> JR> produce an implementation of the part you propose to standardize?
>> Some additional comfort:
>> request, distributed on several database (nearly necessary);
>> rights for each record.
>>
>> P.S. I have much doubts about creating index for 'rought equality of
>> strings', and thus about 'rought equality' itself.
>>
>> JR> - Who are the people who recognize their need to cooperate using a
>> JR> technology like yours, instead of existing standards or proprietary
>> JR> approaches, and will help you to get this accepted as a standard?
>> (1) Applied specialist (phisicists, biologists, etc),
>> who by itself (independently) must develop informational system
>> (1.1) heavy to explain for programmers
>> (1.2) have no time
>> (1.3) have no money
>> (2) Workman in small business
>> (3) Teacher in university
>>
>> JR> Good answers to these questions will help you know where to go with
the
>> JR> proposed standard to make it happen.
>> How you estimate my answers ?
>> Is it right, realistic ?
>> What i forgot ?
>>
>>
>> Dmitry Turin
>> SQL5      (5.4.0)  http://sql50.euro.ru
>> HTML6     (6.4.2)  http://html60.euro.ru
>> Unicode7  (7.2.0)  http://unicode7.by.ru
>> Computer2 (2.0.2)  http://computer20.euro.ru
>>
>>
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>
> ========================================================================
> Jim Melton --- Editor of ISO/IEC 9075-* (SQL)     Phone: +1.801.942.0144
>    Co-Chair, W3C XML Query WG; F&O (etc.) editor    Fax : +1.801.942.3345
> Oracle Corporation        Oracle Email: jim dot melton at oracle dot com
> 1930 Viscounti Drive      Standards email: jim dot melton at acm dot org
> Sandy, UT 84093-1063 USA          Personal email: jim at melton dot name
> ========================================================================
> =  Facts are facts.   But any opinions expressed are the opinions      =
> =  only of myself and may or may not reflect the opinions of anybody   =
> =  else with whom I may or may not have discussed the issues at hand.  =
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