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RE: xml-dev Digest 30 Aug 2009 01:49:06 -0000 Issue 2225 [T20090830001RS010Z2787776]

Dear Len, Thank you for contacting XM. We are not able to determine your request by the information you have provided. Please send your request again with additional details such as your XM Satellite Radio ID (found on channel 0 of your unit) or your account number and billing address and we will be happy to assist you. If we can be of further assistance, please feel free to send an additional email or you may contact a Listener Care Representative directly at 1-800-XM RADIO (800-967-2346). Our Listener Care Center’s hours of operation are as follows: Monday – Saturday: 6AM–2AM EST Sunday: 8AM–8PM EST Thank you, Mabelle


On August 30, 2009 at 9:49 AM, xml-dev-digest-help@lists.xml.org wrote:




Forwarded Message:
From: "Len Bullard"
To: "'Kurt Cagle'" , "'Michael Kay'"
CC: "'Louis Matherne'" , xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] XPointer is dead. What about XLink?
Sent Date: Fri Aug 28 07:30:07 SGT 2009


Those technologies don’t get traction I think because for most common practice uses of XML they aren’t that useful.   Most useful related office data is stored relationally.

 

As Tim Bray observes, XML thrives as bits on the wires.  As a representation most programmers can schlep in and out of RAM as documents, it’s ok.  Most common uses can use microformats for the longer lived semantically loaded bits because microformats track the average information density of tables.  Wise URI management does the rest.   If you need a doc of links, you usually have a table of contents or the reverse index which is fine because those are where some of the ideas in XPointer and XLInk originate as well as glosses/annotations.

 

Very complex abstractions of semantically loaded data can be fascinating to think about, but what practical desktop uses are made of them?  I’m not saying they don’t exist, but where they exist in the information ecosystem, what other systems are their dependent neighbors?

 

Humans read the stuff.   Documents work.   As a result, the most frequent user of the system doesn’t use XPointer or XLink.  They don’t care.   No care: no market.

 

len

 




Forwarded Message:
From: "Dana Pearson"
To: "Costello, Roger L." , xml-dev@lists.xml.org
CC:
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] XPointer is dead. What about XLink?
Sent Date: Fri Aug 28 08:38:07 SGT 2009


Nothing to contribute to this discussion other than note of another example of XLink playing a seemingly significant role:

XLink is important to the Metadata Encoding and Transmission Standard Standard (METS) utilized by libraries and museums and other institutions maintaining digital repositories.  Given the variety of descriptive metadata encoding standards (to facilitate discovery) for digital objects, METS provides encoding to handle this and the variety of other purposes of metadata (e.g. preservation).  XLink seems to play an important role in its schema for links to descriptive metadata schema and file locations of digital object components.

Not a user, have just read the literature.  http://www.loc.gov/standards/mets/mets-schemadocs.html

regards,
Dana Pearson
dbpearsonmlis.com

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:45 AM, Costello, Roger L. < costello@mitre.org> wrote:

Hi Folks,

On July 29, 2009 Michael Kay wrote:

   As far as I am aware, XPointer
   is not being pursued either by
   standards groups or by implementors.


What about XLink, is it being pursued by either standards groups or by implementors?

/Roger
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Forwarded Message:
From: "W. Hugh Chatfield I.S.P."
To: "'Kurt Cagle'" , "'Michael Kay'" , "'Len Bullard'"
CC: "'Louis Matherne'" , xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] XPointer is dead. What about XLink?
Sent Date: Fri Aug 28 09:19:02 SGT 2009




Forwarded Message:
From: "Michael Kay"
To: hchatfie@urbanmarket.com, "'Kurt Cagle'" , "'Len Bullard'"
CC: "'Louis Matherne'" , xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] XPointer is dead. What about XLink?
Sent Date: Fri Aug 28 17:02:36 SGT 2009




Forwarded Message:
From: "Louis Matherne"
To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
CC:
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] XPointer is dead. What about XLink?
Sent Date: Fri Aug 28 22:18:50 SGT 2009


Len,

 

It’s certainly true that “humans read the stuff” and largely expect to receive it in a manner that’s easy to use – many still prefer the print version.

 

Much of this is dependent on the nature of the information. Information that is largely narrative in nature is less dependent on links to other resources to be complete (although I can spend hours on hours reading something online that takes me down many other paths through links).

 

Contrast this with financial information that is highly structured and metric based and you might come to a different conclusion.  There may be a lot of words with financial information but those words are usually carefully selected to report a required disclosure.  As such, there is a vibrant global industry that creates, aggregates, disaggregates, normalizes, massages, analyzes, and redistributes this information.  At the end, the ‘human still needs to be able to read this stuff” but they aren’t reading a book.  They are reading comparative metrics and other analyzes in an application (think spreadsheet here) that is far more dependent on the ability to pull together multiple sources of information.  In this scenario, XBRL is just the plumbing that the end user cares little about, but this plumbing ties it into the city utilities as opposed to a well and septic system.

 

Louis Matherne

 

From: Len Bullard [mailto:cbullard@hiwaay.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:30 PM
To: 'Kurt Cagle'; 'Michael Kay'
Cc: 'Louis Matherne'; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] XPointer is dead. What about XLink?

 

Those technologies don’t get traction I think because for most common practice uses of XML they aren’t that useful.   Most useful related office data is stored relationally.

 

As Tim Bray observes, XML thrives as bits on the wires.  As a representation most programmers can schlep in and out of RAM as documents, it’s ok.  Most common uses can use microformats for the longer lived semantically loaded bits because microformats track the average information density of tables.  Wise URI management does the rest.   If you need a doc of links, you usually have a table of contents or the reverse index which is fine because those are where some of the ideas in XPointer and XLInk originate as well as glosses/annotations.

 

Very complex abstractions of semantically loaded data can be fascinating to think about, but what practical desktop uses are made of them?  I’m not saying they don’t exist, but where they exist in the information ecosystem, what other systems are their dependent neighbors?

 

Humans read the stuff.   Documents work.   As a result, the most frequent user of the system doesn’t use XPointer or XLink.  They don’t care.   No care: no market.

 

len

 




Forwarded Message:
From: "Len Bullard"
To: "'Louis Matherne'" , xml-dev@lists.xml.org
CC:
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] XPointer is dead. What about XLink?
Sent Date: Sat Aug 29 06:44:44 SGT 2009


Louis:

 

I have been careful to use the qualifier of common practice which one can quantify as the aggregate of system type (email, document editors, spreadsheets, visual analytics (maps)  etc )clusters on desktops.

 

Of the kinds of information types you list, how many can not be done using relational dbs (SQL) and common three tier systems and how many users need to do those things?

 

Of those that are left, how many are best done with XBRL for some given metric of better?

 

Of those, how many implementations are there in open source and how many are serviced?

 

len

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Louis Matherne [mailto:matherne@optonline.net]
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:19 AM
To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] XPointer is dead. What about XLink?

 

Len,

 

It’s certainly true that “humans read the stuff” and largely expect to receive it in a manner that’s easy to use – many still prefer the print version.

 

Much of this is dependent on the nature of the information. Information that is largely narrative in nature is less dependent on links to other resources to be complete (although I can spend hours on hours reading something online that takes me down many other paths through links).

 

Contrast this with financial information that is highly structured and metric based and you might come to a different conclusion.  There may be a lot of words with financial information but those words are usually carefully selected to report a required disclosure.  As such, there is a vibrant global industry that creates, aggregates, disaggregates, normalizes, massages, analyzes, and redistributes this information.  At the end, the ‘human still needs to be able to read this stuff” but they aren’t reading a book.  They are reading comparative metrics and other analyzes in an application (think spreadsheet here) that is far more dependent on the ability to pull together multiple sources of information.  In this scenario, XBRL is just the plumbing that the end user cares little about, but this plumbing ties it into the city utilities as opposed to a well and septic system.

 

Louis Matherne

 

From: Len Bullard [mailto:cbullard@hiwaay.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:30 PM
To: 'Kurt Cagle'; 'Michael Kay'
Cc: 'Louis Matherne'; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] XPointer is dead. What about XLink?

 

Those technologies don’t get traction I think because for most common practice uses of XML they aren’t that useful.   Most useful related office data is stored relationally.

 

As Tim Bray observes, XML thrives as bits on the wires.  As a representation most programmers can schlep in and out of RAM as documents, it’s ok.  Most common uses can use microformats for the longer lived semantically loaded bits because microformats track the average information density of tables.  Wise URI management does the rest.   If you need a doc of links, you usually have a table of contents or the reverse index which is fine because those are where some of the ideas in XPointer and XLInk originate as well as glosses/annotations.

 

Very complex abstractions of semantically loaded data can be fascinating to think about, but what practical desktop uses are made of them?  I’m not saying they don’t exist, but where they exist in the information ecosystem, what other systems are their dependent neighbors?

 

Humans read the stuff.   Documents work.   As a result, the most frequent user of the system doesn’t use XPointer or XLink.  They don’t care.   No care: no market.

 

len

 




Forwarded Message:
From: "Len Bullard"
To: "'W. Hugh Chatfield I.S.P.'" , "'Kurt Cagle'" , "'Michael Kay'"
CC: "'Louis Matherne'" , xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] XPointer is dead. What about XLink?
Sent Date: Sat Aug 29 06:57:56 SGT 2009




Forwarded Message:
From: "Ryan, Paul (ICTL_StAI_25)"
To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
CC:
Subject: URL versus relative path schemaLocation imports
Sent Date: Fri Aug 28 18:47:44 SGT 2009




Forwarded Message:
From: "Michael Kay"
To: "'Ryan, Paul (ICTL_StAI_25)'" , xml-dev@lists.xml.org
CC:
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] URL versus relative path schemaLocation imports
Sent Date: Fri Aug 28 19:01:10 SGT 2009




Forwarded Message:
From: "Costello, Roger L."
To: "'xml-dev@lists.xml.org'"
CC:
Subject: Does data represent things besides entities, attributes, and relationships?
Sent Date: Sat Aug 29 22:02:16 SGT 2009




Forwarded Message:
From: "Mukul Gandhi"
To: "Costello, Roger L."
CC: "xml-dev@lists.xml.org"
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Does data represent things besides entities, attributes, and relationships?
Sent Date: Sat Aug 29 22:47:06 SGT 2009




Forwarded Message:
From: "Michael Kay"
To: "'Costello, Roger L.'" , xml-dev@lists.xml.org
CC:
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Does data represent things besides entities, attributes, and relationships?
Sent Date: Sat Aug 29 22:57:12 SGT 2009




Forwarded Message:
From: "Seth Johnson"
To: "Costello, Roger L." , "'xml-dev@lists.xml.org'"
CC:
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Does data represent things besides entities, attributes, and relationships?
Sent Date: Sat Aug 29 23:49:52 SGT 2009



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