Re: [xml-dev] RE: Declarative programming requires a different mindset

[Dimitre Novatchev <dnovatchev@gmail.com>]

> My opinion (to be discussed):
> extracting a subpart of declarations and reusing it in another context
> requires a very deep knowledge of the code structure and of the facts
> that will happen in that given context.
> In one word: reusability is *very* tedious and error-prone.
>

This is far from the truth. Any code can be reused if it is
implemented as an <xsl:function>.

The FXSL library for functional programming in XSLT (both 2.0 and 1.0)
is one particular example of reaching and providing an extremely high
degree of reusability.

Just one "small" example: In FXSL it was very easy to convert and
provide all standard XPath 2.0/XQuery F&Os to higher order functions.

Most of the functions in FXSL know nothing about who and how is going
to use them -- they are used in myriad of ways that are unplanned and
unthought of. Such genericity and power is much more difficult (if
possible at all) to achieve with an imperative language.

Why is this so?  Maybe it would help to know that FXSL is mainly a
re-write of Haskell's Prelude module in XSLT.




--
Cheers,
Dimitre Novatchev
---------------------------------------
Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence.
---------------------------------------
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk
-------------------------------------
Never fight an inanimate object
-------------------------------------
You've achieved success in your field when you don't know whether what
you're doing is work or play


On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 7:39 AM, Olivier Rossel
<olivier.rossel@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am no expert at Prolog, but I have a quite good understanding of XSLT.
> So i would consider myself non-newbie when it comes to declarative programming.
>
> I would like more information about a statement taken from that
> (interesting) conversation.
>
> "In Prolog, components of your program are highly compartmentalized -
> so it is especially
> easy to grab blocks of code and graft them into another process."
>
> As far as I know, reusability in declarative programming is a lot of human work.
>
> For example, in XSLT, you cannot evaluate the relevancy of a
> <xsl:template> just by reading its code.
> You need a very good understanding of the input schema and of *all*
> the other <xsl:template>s.
> And, eventually, running the stylesheet is the only way to clearly
> understand the relationships between the <xsl:template>s.
>
> My opinion (to be discussed):
> extracting a subpart of declarations and reusing it in another context
> requires a very deep knowledge of the code structure and of the facts
> that will happen in that given context.
> In one word: reusability is *very* tedious and error-prone.
>
> On the contrary, when it comes to statically-typed imperative
> languages such as Java, you have a bunch of highly effective static
> analysis tools to assist you when dealing with refactioring,
> modularity, code extraction, static debugging, a priori understanding
> of data structures, data flows and runtime flows.
>
> So my question is:
> what is the R&D status of static analysis tools  for declarative
> programming languages?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 4:05 PM,  <w3c@drrw.info> wrote:
> > Kendall,
> > Excellent points!
> > I would say however that personally I try to use the declarative approach as
> > my go to paradigm in xslt - and resort to procedural to handle edge
> > conditions and explicit constructs.
> > IMHO - this also results in smaller more compact and easier to maintain
> > code.  As your example below illustrates.
> > The declarative approach by its very nature supports the general case of
> > inputs - so the code is not brittle - but instead is adaptive to new input
> > patterns that its author had not previously encountered or anticipated
> > directly.
> > DW
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Re: [xml-dev] RE: Declarative programming requires a different
> > mindset
> > From: Kendall Shaw <kshaw@kendallshaw.com>
> > Date: Thu, March 25, 2010 5:47 pm
> > To: "xml-dev@lists.xml.org" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org>
> >
> > "Costello, Roger L." <costello@mitre.org> writes:
> >
> > [about declarative programming]
> >
> > I enjoy your various posts with high level questions like this. I hope
> > you will keep asking them.
> >
> > The question of what "the definition" of "declarative programming" is,
> > is unanswerable, I think. People use words as tags to coordinate
> > discussion of topics. A conversation often takes the form:
> >
> > Here is a phrase to use as a mnemonic: "..."
> >
> > Here are more phrases asserting the meaning of the mnemonic phrase.
> >
> > Here are more phrases that are meant as an invitiation for you to
> > discuss a topic in terms of those phrases.
> >
> > In such a discussion you make a point by referencing the mnemonic phrase
> > and redefining it.
> >
> >>> A clearer distinction is whether or not the program involves mutable
> >>> state
> >> variables.
> >>
> >> Since XSLT variables don't vary, are all XSLT programs declarative?
> >>
> >> Surely that's not the case.
> >
> > It's worthwhile to think of declarative programming as a style, in my
> > opinion, and not all XSLT programs are written in a declarative style. A
> > declarative programming language would be one that makes declarative
> > programming easier than if it were not a declarative programming language.
> >
> > A program can have parts that are writte in a declarative style and
> > parts that are not.
> >
> > I also think it is worthwhile to think of functional programming and
> > declarative programing as different things.
> >
> > Perl is not a functional programming language, but you can write perl in
> > a declarative style, e.g.:
> >
> > document(title(), body());
> >
> > is written in a declarative style.
> >
> > You can also program in functional programming style using a procedural
> > language. I suspect you could program in a "less functional" style using
> > a functional programming language, but I can't think of an example.
> >
> >> Would someone give an example of XSLT code that is clearly imperative?
> >
> > This:
> >
> > <!-- given a matching author author -->
> > <xsl:variable name="author" select="f:matching-author(.)"/>
> > <!-- an author-link is the matching author's name and www address -->
> > <author-link>
> > <xsl:copy-of select="$author/name"/>
> > <xsl:copy-of select="$author/www"/>
> > </author-link>
> >
> > is more declarative and less imperative than:
> >
> > <!-- output an author-link start tag -->
> > <xsl:text disable-output-escaping="yes">&lt;author-link></xsl:text>
> >
> > <!-- get the matching author -->
> > <xsl:variable name="author" select="f:matching-author(.)"/>
> >
> > <!-- output it's name -->
> > <xsl:copy-of select="$author/name"/>
> >
> > <!-- output it's www address-->
> > <xsl:copy-of select="$author/ww"/>
> >
> > <!-- output an author-link end tag -->
> > <xsl:text disable-output-escaping="yes">&lt;/author-link></xsl:text>
> >
> > So, I think declarative programming is not a precisely definable
> > concept. It refers to those parts of a programming style that you
> > describe as being declarative.
> >
> > Kendall
> >
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