-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] 'is-a' Relationships in XML?
From: "stephengreenubl@gmail.com" <stephengreenubl@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, May 08, 2010 6:42 am
To: "xml-dev" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org>
Maybe OASIS open's genericode could be used for mapping two ways between ontology and schema for the markup.
Stephen D Green
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Green
Sent: 06/05/2010 4:52:07 pm
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] 'is-a' Relationships in XML?
Maybe, as with character sets, what we need are three kinds of artefacts
to more completely define the markup
1. schema (to define the structure and structural constraints)
2. ontology (to define the semantics - the real world things and
concepts to which the markup relates)
3. mapping table (to map between 1. and 2.)
Again, as with my analogy to character sets and their mapping tables,
we'd ideally need to use the table when 'understanding' the underlying
markup (as a table is used to 'understand' ASCII in its binary/hex form).
In some cases it might be possible to combine 2. and 3. (or even 1. and 3.).
E.g. maybe RDF's 'about' can be used somehow with a combination of URL
(or the like) and XPath (or the like) - or just XQuery??? - to denote
the mappings.
Or maybe the RDF would want it the other way round to map XML to the
meaning (mapping XPaths/XQueries to RDF classes and properties via 'about'?)
But the lookups need, I think, to be able to work both ways, which might be
more than can be done with RDF alone.
Best regards
Steve
---
Stephen D Green
On 6 May 2010 15:27, Stephen Green <stephengreenubl@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's a bit like separating form and function. 'Meaning' is a bit of a
> distraction and yes, we can waste loads of time talking about it.
> We have a history of separation of form and function with computers.
> We would not try writing binary manually - that is the fundamental
> form. We lay over it a layer of 'meaning' (function?) by having our
> character binary mapped to real-world characters and wrapping our
> assembly language and around that more 'meaningful' (convenient)
> languages. Potentiall it could go on forever but pragmatics prevents
> this. If there is a wasted layer, it just gets pushed aside by progress.
> So with this concept of adding meaning to markup - if it is needless
> it will get set aside as time goes on. If it is needful we best try adding
> it sooner rather than later so we don't delay progress and put off the
> inevitable. The comments in this thread hint at the possible need for
> a separation of structure and 'meaning' (or mappings to real world,
> like characters sets map binary/hex to real world character symbols).
>
> Best regards
>
> Steve
> ---
> Stephen D Green
>
>
>
>
> On 6 May 2010 14:52, David <dlee@calldei.com> wrote:
>> Just a side diversion ... apologize for the slightly off-topic but I had to
>> bring it up ....
>> With all this talk about "semantics" and "the real world" and getting
>> "meaning" from markup etc ...
>> Where does it all stop ? Have ANY technology ever achieved encoding true
>> meaning ?
>> I dont think so. I dont think any humans languages have either.
>> Its a worthwhile goal, and I think one of the oldest philosophical goals but
>> I dont think we can ever get there.
>> At some point "enough is enough". Enough meaning for the application.
>> In "your app" parent/child relationships in "your xml" may be close enough
>> to "contains" to work.
>> What does it "mean" ...
>>
>> Well to quote the famous philosopher "Mr. Natural"
>> when asked (concerning the meaning of live, war, happiness etc ..)
>> "But ... What does it all mean !!!??"
>> Answer: "Don't mean sheet".
>>
>>
>> I seriously think that applies here. At some point the meaning is "good
>> enough" in context ...
>> and there is ALWAYS context.
>>
>> So when I have my Employeer/Employee database in XML ... am I going to try
>> to use RDF and SPARQL to attempt to model "meaning" in it ?
>> Not a chance. Its "good enough" to "know" that <employeer> "has a"
>> <employee> without trying to encode that *anywhere*.
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------
>>
>> David A. Lee
>> dlee@calldei.com
>> http://www.calldei.com
>> http://www.xmlsh.org
>>
>>
>> On 5/6/2010 9:36 AM, Stephen Green wrote:
>>>
>>> OK. Apologies for relying on potentially ambiguous terms here.
>>>
>>> To be more precise, I hope, I'd say there are going to be classes
>>> and properties defined about the 'real world' things to which the
>>> markup relates or which it represents in some way. These might
>>> typically be defined using some specialised technology like some
>>> of the RDF or OWL syntaxes. Then some related query language
>>> would be used along with a reasoner (and/or inference engine
>>> perhaps) to query this information. I've called the information
>>> 'semantic' and the query technology for it a 'semantic query'. It
>>> could be SPARQL or the like. The first step might be to run such
>>> queries to obtain perhaps XPaths from the stored information. A
>>> second step might be to use these XPaths to interrogate the XML
>>> itself. Putting the two steps together might be a function of the
>>> query engine which might first have to be able to query say a 'triple
>>> store' of RDF instances or the OWL equivalent (or whatever technology
>>> is used to store information relating the markup to its subject domain).
>>> I'd really suggest the same query engine might be extended (e.g
>>> with Saxon...) to run the XPath against relevant markup. I don't
>>> see how the XML would be identified but it might be held in a database
>>> and configuration details stored in the information query engine or passed
>>> with the query as parameters perhaps.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> Steve
>>> ---
>>> Stephen D Green
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6 May 2010 13:59, Michael Kay<mike@saxonica.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have absolutely no idea what you mean by terms such as "semantic
>>>> queries"
>>>> or "semantic query languages". I do wish we could stop using these terms.
>>>> You put some bits in at one end and you get some different bits out at
>>>> the
>>>> other; the transformation of one set of bits to the other is purely
>>>> mechanical, and they don't mean anything unless human beings choose to
>>>> attach meaning to them. That's the way computers work.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Michael Kay
>>>> http://www.saxonica.com/
>>>> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Stephen Green [mailto:stephengreenubl@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: 06 May 2010 13:28
>>>>> To: xml-dev
>>>>> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] 'is-a' Relationships in XML?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd propose some best practice principles then
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. semantic queries regarding XML should ideally be written
>>>>> in a semantic query language
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. semantic queries using XPath should be considered second best
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. semantic conformance rules / criteria should be tested
>>>>> using semantic assertions (just as we can test structural
>>>>> criteria using XPath assertions such as Schematron, XSD 1.1,
>>>>> test assertion markup with XPathsm and other associations
>>>>> between rules and XPaths, etc)
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. semantics can be defined for a markup using semantic /
>>>>> ontology languages
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. semantic expressions can be evaluated over the markup
>>>>> using semantic queries but for this, maybe further work is
>>>>> needed to establish how to associate XPaths with the semantic
>>>>> definitions
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephen D Green
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apologies for harping back on the
>>>>>> former thread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given then that I need to define the
>>>>>> semantics of a markup outside of that
>>>>>> markup and outside of a schema,
>>>>>> perhaps using RDF or the like, I'd probably want to associate many
>>>>>> classes and properties or expressions with XPaths in my markup.
>>>>>> If I used RDF, it seems to like URIs or URLs or the like
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (there seem
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to be many such identifier standards of late). Would there be a
>>>>>> standard way to add something like an XPath to perhaps the
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> end of such
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a URL, so I can point a semantic expression like class or
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> property to
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a node in the markup?
>>>>>> XQuery? It would be nice to have a semantic query like
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> SPARQL be able
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to resolve
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stephen D Green
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>> _________
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>>>>
>>>
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