Re: [xml-dev] Fixing what's broke

[Stephen Green <stephengreenubl@gmail.com>]

>
> As for microformats, microdata and/or RDFa, they tend to be very close to the information that they're 'illuminating' so the chance for misunderstanding doe to omission of tags is reduced or even non-existent. Also, and I've not done any extensive research, but I be prepared to bet that of all the websites that have, for example, RDFa in them they're more likely to be XHTML rather than HTML because the people putting it in want the XHTML and its data to be parsed and extracted accurately.
>

I would like that to be true but in practice I find the editor I use
only gives me warnings
about incorrect syntax and the web developers I know just ignore the
warnings (as I
do) or their life would be unbearable and their work take far too
long. That is the Web
people want to target with XML, in my experience. It might be that the
fact XML parsers
keep complaining and don't just complain but pack up or misfunction
when they get what
seem to be minor/geeky errors - it might be this which hinders XML's
take-up among
web developers, etc. I mean, who really cares if the data encoding
doesn't match the
encoding declaration when they are authoring a webpage or web application? The
browsers can usually sort it out and in the worse case people might
have to manually
adjust the encoding in their browser to see an offending character.
That's HTML (and
XHTML too). Yes the CSS might get a bit mangled but it usually doesn't
matter a lot.
They would then think, 'Why should XML be any different? and if it is
then why use it?'

----
Stephen D Green



On 10 December 2010 10:31, Philip Fennell <Philip.Fennell@marklogic.com> wrote:
>> Well, maybe financial data would - then they can use
>> plain old XML 1.0 - but wherever JSON is used it might
>> be that a relaxed XML could be used too;
>
> Although I'm not averse to some of the suggestion, on this list, to having layered profiles from 'simple' to 'full' XML, what I am concerned about is the business of dropping/diminishing end tags. I think that's a step too far IMHO, actually counter-productive and it wouldn't improve anyone's view of XML.
>
>> Otherwise people would never have started putting
>> their business data on websites
>
> I bet that that 'data' is in the form of tables which are for presentation and not machine processing, unless they've gone to the trouble of using all the attributes and elements, that don't add to the presentation, in order to make it possible to process effectively and reliably.
>
>> while microformats (soon microdata?) can be used
>> for data in web pages despite the HTML being relaxed.
>
> As for microformats, microdata and/or RDFa, they tend to be very close to the information that they're 'illuminating' so the chance for misunderstanding doe to omission of tags is reduced or even non-existent. Also, and I've not done any extensive research, but I be prepared to bet that of all the websites that have, for example, RDFa in them they're more likely to be XHTML rather than HTML because the people putting it in want the XHTML and its data to be parsed and extracted accurately.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Philip Fennell
> Consultant
> MarkLogic Corporation
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Green [mailto:stephengreenubl@gmail.com]
> Sent: 10 December, 2010 10:04 AM
> To: Philip Fennell
> Cc: Ramkumar Menon; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Fixing what's broke
>
>>  However, for data this is less likely to work. For a start,
>> financial reporting and transactions would suffer greatly
>> under a scheme that permitted "making assumptions about
>> what 'everyone understands'".
>
> Well, maybe financial data would - then they can use plain old XML 1.0 -
> but wherever JSON is used it might be that a relaxed XML could be
> used too; if you think how JSON does without a schema and relies on
> a very terse syntax while microformats (soon microdata?) can be used
> for data in web pages despite the HTML being relaxed. For an amount
> in a financial report (like XBRL) there is a need to explicitly state a lot
> of things like how decimals places there are, what the decimal separator
> is, what the rounding is, etc. For a price on a web catalogue page that
> isn't so crucial perhaps. For some contact data it is less crucial still
> perhaps. In these case the current use of HTML sometimes suffices
> and all the more so with HTML5, I would think. Otherwise people would
> never have started putting their business data on websites would they
> though it probably took a while before the technology of browsers
> and web servers matured enough to make this financially acceptable.
>
> ----
> Stephen D Green
>
>
>
> On 10 December 2010 09:51, Philip Fennell <Philip.Fennell@marklogic.com> wrote:
>> Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> But hasn't HTML succeeded even more so than XML?
>>> And hasn't that partly been down to it making assumptions
>>> about what 'everyone understands'?
>>
>> You make a convincing argument from the point of view of the visual representation on mark-up in a browser. If there are missing end tags then a browser will, more than likely, display something that a human can decipher reasonably quickly. However, for data this is less likely to work. For a start, financial reporting and transactions would suffer greatly under a scheme that permitted "making assumptions about what 'everyone understands'".
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Philip Fennell
>> Consultant
>> MarkLogic Corporation
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stephen Green [mailto:stephengreenubl@gmail.com]
>> Sent: 10 December, 2010 9:26 AM
>> To: Ramkumar Menon
>> Cc: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
>> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Fixing what's broke
>>
>>> May I ask if the success of XML is attributed to its verbosity?
>>>
>>> Introducing terse but complex syntax like skipping/stripping end tags sound
>>> like 're-engineering' a traffic junction to have no lights and assuming
>>> everyone understands when to stop/move.
>>> You save on traffic lights, but your traffic slows down. We can always point
>>> people to a detailed manual instructing how to operate, but yeah, how many
>>> humans do that diligently.
>>
>> But hasn't HTML succeeded even more so than XML? And hasn't that partly
>> been down to it making assumptions about what 'everyone understands'?
>> So maybe XML would be even more successful - and, more on topic, get more
>> take-up on the Web - if it became more like HTML which by and large would
>> mean relaxing a lot of things.
>>
>> I'm interested to see how something like HTML5 microdata will compare with XML.
>>
>> ----
>> Stephen D Green
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9 December 2010 22:25, Ramkumar Menon <ramkumar.menon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hey Gurus,
>>>
>>> Let me put the question other way around.
>>> May I ask if the success of XML is attributed to its verbosity?
>>>
>>> Introducing terse but complex syntax like skipping/stripping end tags sound
>>> like 're-engineering' a traffic junction to have no lights and assuming
>>> everyone understands when to stop/move.
>>> You save on traffic lights, but your traffic slows down. We can always point
>>> people to a detailed manual instructing how to operate, but yeah, how many
>>> humans do that diligently.
>>> XML is for the general public. Let the humans do their job, and the parsers
>>> theirs.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ram
>>>
>>> 1. Tools help in minimizing the time required to crank out such verbose
>>> data. This has matured over the last few years.
>>> 2. Well designed and written XML is not visually challenging.
>>> 3. Equating terseness and simplicity is tricky.
>>> 4. In-memory representations can represent the same data in a more terse
>>> form Binary, Blah and what not!
>>> 5. With such a broad audience for its consumption, any new NextXML will
>>> bloat up gradually with requests and requirements.
>>> 6. Storage is getting cheaper [or am I dreaming?]. Let those tags come in!
>>> 7. [Joke] It depends on how you look at it. [Imagine yourself wearing "Red"
>>> lens glasses and staring at a "Green" light at a traffic junction!. Honk!
>>> Honk! behind you.]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/9/2010 12:22 PM, Pete Cordell wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Original Message From: "Liam R E Quin"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I'd suggest doing something like:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <Book:Book>
>>>>>> <Book:Author>John Grisham</>
>>>>>> <Book:Title>The Case of the Hidden Claw</>
>>>>>> </Book:Book>
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe I wasn't clear. Suppose I now write,
>>>>> <Book:Book>
>>>>> <Book:Title>John Grisham</>
>>>>> <Book:Author>The Case of the Hidden Claw</>
>>>>> </Book:Book>
>>>>>
>>>>> How are you going to detect my error?
>>>>
>>>> I'll confess it did take me a long tome to spot the error.  However, I
>>>> tend to use Visual Studio to edit XML files.  I imagine its at the bottom of
>>>> the food chain, but it does automatically put in the end tag so I'm not sure
>>>> I would have spotted the error from that.
>>>>
>>>> I would also like to believe that my schema would point the error out to
>>>> me. Please don't go disillusioning me about that :-)
>>>>
>>>> Pete Cordell
>>>> Codalogic Ltd
>>>> Interface XML to C++ the easy way using C++ XML
>>>> data binding to convert XSD schemas to C++ classes.
>>>> Visit http://codalogic.com/lmx/ or http://www.xml2cpp.com
>>>> for more info
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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