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RE: [xml-dev] JSON, tides and XML


You are obviously a coffee drinker and I'm offering you teas to sample!

History of all this is woven into a lot of standards jargon - I can't change all that.

Maybe you prefer some Youtube videos to try instead?

I still need to record "the completely simple and obvious video" - sans that - there is still a chunk more standards stuff than you will probably care for, but what the heck, at least you get to see how stuff works:


But then that has been the main audience.  There is a lot of folks that are "headed in that direction" as you put it.

Maybe that is the real answer here -

Q. Want to do standards based exchanges?

   Yes - pick XML

   No - roll your own JSON

I'm cool with that ; -)


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] JSON, tides and XML
From: "Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com>
Date: Sun, April 28, 2013 9:32 pm
To: "xml-dev@lists.xml.org" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org>

On 4/28/13 9:15 PM, w3c@drrw.info wrote:
> You see - I told you I'm first to do things different - why the heck
> would you think I'm using something as ghastly as XSD schema to do
> this?! ; -)

Instead of schema you seem to be using something much more comprehensive
that, though I'll have to study it more closely, actually looks much worse.

The press release of a wikipedia article definitely has me running for
the hills:


This doesn't help much either, though perhaps it's written for the


>>>> "Much of my point in this recent conversation - the piece that really
> seems to make people angry, in any case - is that creating such
> standards is a bad idea, and schema a particularly dangerous enabler. As
> a result, that claim doesn't have much positive effect on me." <<<
> Completely agree!

I'm pretty certain you didn't read the first sentence, or at least if
you did, you interpreted it in some way that spares CAM for no apparent

> All that XSD schema does is tell you the millions of possible
> permutations that you may encounter.

Which is bad enough, but yes...

> Instead the CAM template hones in on the WYSIWYG view of the exchange -
> complete with content use rules - code lists - SQL lookups - and
> annotations for content hinting and DBmapping. Plus most important -
> you can have dynamic content components - essential for versioning - or
> dealing with nuances from 500 trading partners foibles in their
> application systems.

How much of that is shared across partners? Dynamic content components
sound like the escape hatch need to make such madness flexible enough to
work for a while, but so far as I can tell that's something to do with
generating structure from SQL.

> Structure + Content + Rules + Annotations + Components + Policy in one
> tidy XML package = CAM template.
> While we may never get to the Nirvana of complete automation - its a
> huge jump start.

Complete automation is not Nirvana. That's hell.

> And because we use Dictionaries of XML components in the designer mode -
> you can assemble and reuse for a domain. So defining your standard
> around those reusable assets makes much more sense - this is truly what
> people think intuitively of as they look conceptually at their data
> exchange needs - Person, Address, Order Item, Customer, Patient,
> Student, and so on.

After all, it would be a huge headache for people to create vocabularies
structured around what they actually say.

> But we can generate an XSD schema if you still need it for your tooling
> - e.g. JAXB binding or Form tool designer or JSON tool. All driven with
> by the power of XSLT and XPath over your XML definitions.
> I really do not need to reinvent all this rich capability for JSON that
> does not have it.

No, you don't. On the bright side, you've gone so far in the wrong
direction that hopefully you won't have the JSON folks knocking on your
door very often.

Thanks, and good luck,
Simon St.Laurent


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