Re: [xml-dev] Plan for alternative Open Standard text for Schematron

Oh, I am competely happy for ISO to have the copyright of the human text of the standard, and it was never my understanding as editor that I retained any copyright*, nor to cause any trouble in that regard. There are many fragments in the first draft from my earlier specifications of Schematron in Taiwan, but they were all thoroughly revised to suit ISO rules. Anyway, the ISO book format is not an optimal format for users and implementers, so I think we can do something better (that, hopefully, meets the requirements of an Open Standard without being a formal standard that would compete in any way with ISO standard, nor describe a different technology.)

What I would like is for them to continue the same compromise position as was held for the last 15 years, which is that the policy for 19757-2 (RELAX NG) applied to all the parts of 19757 DSDL. If they really cannot put up the latest 2020 version as a PDF licensed for individual, non-corporate use, then I utterly don't see why this required them to take down the previous 2016 (or 2006) version.

Regards

Rick

* I suppose if there are any passages in my pre-ISO work that found their way into the ISO standard without significant change, the most that could be said was that ISO and I both have copyright. It would be ridiculous to hold that an editor of a standard could plonk a paragraph he/she had previously written (e.g. on a website), without there thereby being an implied sharing of copyright to ISO from the editor for that.

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 5:59 PM Marcus Reichardt <u123724@gmail.com> wrote:

> (Does anyone know of software that creates a hyperlinked set of pages for a DTD or XSD or RELAX NG schema?)

For (SGML and XML) DTDs, there's the venerable Perl-based livedtd
script (<http://www.sagehill.net/livedtd/>), still unmatched in
functionality IMO. It was used by W3C for the HTML 4.x DTD and before.
I've adapted it slightly for my HTML5 DTD project (to get rid of HTML
frames as I recall) and can share my modifications.

For XSD, I used to use Jonathan Marsh's XSLT-based
annotated-stylesheet, originally for in-browser XSD-to-HTML
transformation (and also WSDL-to-HTML, telling you roughly how old it
is). Though probably there are better solutions around.

It was my understanding that ISO negotiates with spec editors on a
case-by-case basis, including for things such as author copies on
personal web sites and book sales, so you might be entitled to publish
spec documents (but I have no idea if you've got an arrangement to
this effect). I'd be interested in more details as this very topic has
come up just the other day on reddit
(<https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ovjc75/tech_spec_experts_seek_allies_to_tear_down_iso/>).

Cheers,
Marcus

On 8/2/21, Rick Jelliffe <rjelliffe@allette.com.au> wrote:
> Schematron now does not have an Open Standard text for it. I have a plan
> that I would appreciate help with.
>
> *Background:*
>
> Many of you may be aware that ISO decided not to make the new 2020 edition
> of the ISO Schematron standard available for free as PDFs on their
> publically-available specifications website. Because the new text was not
> simultanously maintained by a separate standards body, it did not meet
> their criteria.
>
> It is their right to decide that. But it does go against what I thought was
> the deal with all DSDL specifications.
>
> The galling thing is that they have also unilaterally token down the free
> PDFs of previous editions (2006 and 2016.) 2016 specifies the QLB for
> XSLT2, 2020 specifies the QLB for XSLT 3. It looks like they have also
> taken down the standards for the other parts of DSDL other than RELAX NG,
> which effectively kills them.
>
> So now Schematron, the technology, no longer *has* an Open Standard, the
> documentation.
>
> The schemas for Schematron are still freely distributable, by their purpose
> and nature. The Open Source software is still Open Source.
>
> N.b. I encourage the members of ISO JTC1SC34 to remonstrate with the ISO
> Secretariat in the strongest terms. Please do not take "This is the rules"
> as any kind of answer: when rules cause a problem, you don't just stop with
> them, you start working out a solution. The obvious compromise is simply to
> restore the 2016 specification (and the n-1 versions of the other
> disappeared DSDL specs) back onto the ISO Publically Available
> Specifications.
>
> *Plan:*
> I want to put out an alternative description of exactly the same technology
> as ISO Schematron describes, with no common wording, and make it available
> as an Open Standard.
>
> I am updating the Schematron.com website to move from WordPress to
> PageSeeder, perhaps this week, which provides collaborative editing
> facilities on a web interface. It gives us a chance to explain Schematon
> in hypertext with code or examples, not the particular limitations of
> formal standards.
>
> The intent is not that ISO Schematron should lapse or not be maintained: it
> is good for adoption. But as ISO will not (they would say, cannot) support
> the needs of small, non-corporate, speculative and Open Source developers,
> there is no reason for us to sit around crying.
>
> I hope to switch to the new site later this week. I have all the existing
> site moved over now. PageSeeder is a 20-year mature system, based on XLinks
> and topics, actually. Nick Carr of Allette Systems has very kindly provided
> the license free, and his staff made a look-alike for the current site.
>
> PageSeeder is like a cross between WordPress and GitHub. It has very
> responsive QUASIWYG editing, revision tracking and display, threaded
> comments available most everywhere, TOC and topic-link generation.
>
> Most interestingly, it has, I think, the most tightly integrated Schematron
> validation built into the page editors: very, very slick and pretty. (The
> Schematron is there to let authors know if some part of the page won't
> convert to whatever external XML has been registered for that site. We
> wouldn't be using that functionality.)
>
>
> *Help Wanted*
> So I would like for the Open Standard Schematron spec to have good input
> from the community. My health and concentration is pretty good at the
> moment (ah the benefits of lockdown and unemployment!)
>
> This could be anything:
>
> - You have some pet idea about how to organize a good Open Standard.
> - I always favour minimalism and code in standards. Particularly
> because I am not the least prolix writer.
> - You have some diagrams or cartoons, or ideas for them.
> - One thing I am quite proud of was making those hyperlinked diagrams
> for the XSD datatype hierarchy.
> https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#built-in-datatypes
> - You have some text already that you think explains some things really
> well, that I can use.
> - This might include outlines in slides
> - You are happy to look over drafts online and make comments.
> - Commenting will be open to the public without loging
> - You want to participate as an actual writer of some sections, or as
> sub-editor, or as editor.
> - This would involve getting a login. The PageSeeder editor is pretty
> obvious.
>
> The first step, I think, is to come up with a TOC or organization. I think
> one page per element, each with the DTD line hyperlinked, and any
> Schematron schema assertions that apply.
>
> (Does anyone know of software that creates a hyperlinked set of pages for a
> DTD or XSD or RELAX NG schema?)
>
> Regards
> Rick Jelliffe
>

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