RE: [cam] RE: Drools and CAM

Mark,

    For some reason these messages were marked as 
SPAM so I have only just read them.

 

    The forall() would be great as it would allow a 
catch all check for mandatory elements which is a very difficult check to do in 
normal ways.

 

Martin 
Roberts

 

From: David RR Webber (XML) 
[mailto:] 
Sent: 02 January 2006 19:34
To: 
Mark Proctor
Cc: Roberts,MME,Martin,XBX R; ; 

Subject: RE: [cam] RE: Drools and 
CAM

Mark,

 

forall() is an essential and powerful mechanism.  Will you also be 
implementing the Prolog cut() notion?  Essential for limiting recursion in 
rule solutions.

 

However - I suspect for most of our applications in CAM - the mundane will 
be more than enough.

 

The multi-partner / multi-task collaborations in BPSS / jBPM obviously 
require much more state management and dynamic ruleset management.  The 
concept of a state machine.

 

CAM is designed as a single threaded process that performs a descreet task 
around a particular business transaction.  

 

Within a transaction I can forsee need for DROOLS to manage state - again 
lookiing at our grant applciations - we have budget years and line items within 
budget - so a lot of facts can be asserted there - and then crosschecked once 
all budget items have been accumulated.

 

I like the idea of being able to separate the DROOLS into partions - 
however - I'm thinking this should work already with v2 - if we persist the 
DROOLS engine across invokations from CAM - and then have functions that perform 
the assertions and the comparisons in separate DROOLS scripts - collaborating 
but independently performed.

 

Cheers, DW

-------- 
  Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [cam] RE: Drools and CAM
From: 
  Mark Proctor <>
Date: Mon, January 02, 2006 
  12:57 pm
To: "David Webber (XML)" <>
Cc: 
  , 
  ,


Some of the more 
  advanced features with rule engines are the checks for 
the existence and 
  non existence of facts and constraints, via NOT and 
EXIST - this is more 
  than a standard boolean !. Also we later hope to 
improve that further to 
  support forall and accumulate functionality, 
which makes it easier dealing 
  with quantities and sets of data. 
ark,There is 
also a paper on 
  temperal rules, that jrules is based on, that we want to 
eventually 
  integrate. Finally its wort mentioning that rule engines 
allow rules to be 
  added and removed at runtime, without the need to 
repopulate a working 
  memory.

Mark
David Webber (XML) wrote:
> 
  Martin,
>
> I look forward to Marks' comments.
>
> I'm 
  wondering if he is west coast based - giving us an 8 hour time spread
> 
  here...
>
> What I'm envisioning using DROOLS for is complex 
  business logic.  For
> example - in the grants application 
  processing we have implemented in java -
> an applicant can resubmit 
  their application.  Then the validation runs
> something like this 
  -
>
> if (resubmission) and (prior grant # entered) and (phase2 
  submission)
> check prior grant
>   if (for this applicants 
  organization) and
>   if (not awarded) and (pending or in 
  review)
>   and (was submitted in previous council round)
> 
  then
>   accept
>   action - mark prior application as 
  superceded
>
> Needless to say this is not doable with XPath alone 
  - requiring queries to
> the database - and checking of various 
  conditions and values between the
> backend data and the XML 
  data.
>
> DW
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
  From: <>
> To: 
  <>; <>
> Cc: 
  <>; <>
> 
  Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:36 AM
> Subject: [cam] RE: Drools and 
  CAM
>
>
> Hi,
>
>  In JCAM I have built in 
  a mechanism to have DROOLS perform the
> DataValidation section of the 
  CAM Spec.  The idea is that by passing in a
> set of nodes 
  described by an XPath it would be posible to invoke a script
> that 
  would then work with the nodes supplied.
> This is done by describing a 
  Java Class that allows the nodes to be added to
> the DROOLS working 
  memory and allow the consequences to interact with the
> nodes by 
  changing values etc.
> It seems to work reasonably well and is very 
  simple to implement.
>
> I am also toying with the idea of using 
  the DROOLS ApplicationData construct
> to allow the rules engine to be 
  passed the either the template or the
> xmlfile.  This would enable 
  DROOLS to manipulate the complete tree and
> possibly transform the 
  output based on the rules.  The other extension would
> be to allow 
  the DROOLS to be passed an empty document that it could use to
> hang 
  new constructs off based on the rules firing.
>
> One of the 
  questions I have is what rules might be applied.  Without some
> 
  clear examples it if not easy to know how to integrate the tool.  It 
  seems
> to me that DROOLS could be used in two parts of the CAM template 
  -
> DataValidations and External Mappings.
>
> One further 
  thing I am investigating for jCAM is the use of PicoContainer as
> a 
  method to allow the other processors to be included into the 
  processor.
> The idea being that for each section of the CAM template a 
  processor would
> be passed three possible things - the XML file being 
  processed, the Assembly
> Structure after the Business Rules hade been 
  applied and the section of the
> CAM template the applied to the 
  processor being plugin.  The advantage of
> this method is that we 
  can get the whole of the CAM Spec done by different
> people yet all 
  work with the same tool.  It also means that somebody can
> change 
  the default processor with another without affecting the other bits.
> 
  For example if I get the split right we should be able to allow schema 
  based
> includes without disrupting the rest of the 
  tool.
>
> Happy New Year
>
> Martin
>
> 
  ________________________________
>
> From: Mark Proctor 
  [mailto:]
> Sent: Mon 02/01/2006 05:46
> To: 
  David RR Webber (XML)
> Cc: ; CAM TC; 
  Roberts,MME,Martin,XBX R
> Subject: Re: Drools and 
  CAM
>
>
> Sure no problem, we are always there - just 
  letting you know, in case you
> need any help with 
  Drools.
>
> Mark
> David RR Webber (XML) 
  wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> We'll see who it goes.  My 
  time is extremely short this week - will attend
> to the PPT first. 
   Maybe some of the other folks on the list may want to hop
> over 
  for a chat....
>
> Thanks, 
  DW
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message 
  --------
> Subject: Re: Drools and CAM
> From: Mark Proctor 
  <> <mailto:>
> 
  Date: Sun, January 01, 2006 10:38 pm
> To: "David Webber (XML)" 
  <> <mailto:>
> Cc: 
  , CAM TC <>
> 
  <mailto:> , Martin
> Roberts 
  <> 
  <mailto:>
>
> IRC isn't a list it's 
  a live chat room where you can talk to me and the
> other developers - 
  no need to subscribe, just pop in and have a chat :)
>
> 
  Mark
> David Webber (XML) wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> 
  Your PPT is a great introduction to the world of rule engines and
> 
  methods.
>
> My own background is heavily Prolog - for 15 years. 
   I missed seeing
> constraint based solutioning - but I guess 
  DROOLS has to leave
> somethings to
> those old purpose built 
  engines!  And besides DROOLS could always
> collaborate with a 
  Prolog engine as a close cousin.... ; -)
>
> On to CAM and DROOLS. 
   I have some PPT slides I will share during the
> week
> once 
  I've cleaned them up for external perusal.
>
> Basically the 
  notion is to use the mechanisms in CAM - that is
> essentially a
> 
  domain expert agent in XML structures and metadata - and provide an
> 
  interface directly in CAM to DROOLS and back again.  Then we're 
  adding
> the
> ability to persist to SQL databases in CAM directly 
  from the XML source
> -
> using simple XML syntax based assignment 
  instructions.
>
> This should allow people who are not DROOLS 
  experts - to create a
> business-centric solution that quickly handles 
  basic ebusiness
> transactions - while allowing extended rules to be 
  layered into this -
> by
> software staff - that handle decreet 
  rules and tests that are beyond the
> scope of the base CAM function 
  set.
>
> This gives people the best of both worlds - a purpose 
  built business XML
> expert agent - coupled to the extensible DROOLS 
  engine.
>
> Your snippet of DROOLS V3 shows that this is all 
  heading in the right
> direction.
>
> We've been 
  experimenting with:
> <as:includeScript 
  location="{url/my.drl}"/>
> and
> <as:executeScript 
  name="{name.drl}" parm="\\xpath\locator\*"/>
>
> as a first 
  pass to provide linkage between the two.
>
> I am definately 
  interested in discussing this with the DROOLS community
> -
> 
  where CAM can provide a pluggable XML handler toolkit for DROOLS 
  users?
>
> Beyond all this - DROOLS also looks like a good means 
  to implement a
> state
> machine for BPSS (and JBOSS driven BPM) 
  as envisioned in our BCM
> architecture work - but we'll solve one 
  problem at a time here!
>
> I'm a bit allergic to signing up for 
  IRC lists - my daily bandwidth is
> severally constrained already - but 
  we can definately look at sharing
> some
> collaboration resources 
  - possibly a wiki area - where ideas and test
> components can be 
  posted..?
>
> Thanks, DW
>
> ----- Original Message 
  ----- 
> From: "Mark Proctor" <> 
  <mailto:>
> To: <> 
  <mailto:> ; <>
> 
  <mailto:>
> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 
  2:24 PM
> Subject: Drools and 
  CAM
>
>
>
>
> David, Tanveer,
>
> 
  GoogleAlert brought your postings to my attention. We have big plans 
  for
> Drools 3.0, which will be available at the end of Q1 - see the 
  slides at
>
>
>
> 
  http://drools.org/download/attachments/20545/Business+Rules+Engines.ppt?version=1
>
>
> 
  for more details.
>
> In the mean time if there is anything more 
  we can do to assist or you
> just want a general chat, we are always on 
  the irc server #drools at
> irc.codehaus.org - we provide a web gateway 
  at http://irc.codehaus.org
> <http://irc.codehaus.org/>
> if 
  you do not want to install an IRC client.
>
> 
  Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
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