Yes,
The Translation TC is worried about how
this will be handled. As I understand it, we would need to treat an indexterm
in the prolog differently than an indexterm in a block or inline element. We
would treat the indexterm in the prolog as a “breaking” element and
the indexterm in the text as a subflow.
We are very concerned that different
people would be translating each index element and would not know its context
in a single topic.
JoAnn
JoAnn T. Hackos, PhD
President
Comtech Services, Inc.
710 Kipling Street, Suite 400
Denver, CO 80215
303-232-7586
joannhackos Skype
www.comtech-serv.com
From: Esrig, Bruce
(Bruce) [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 4:34
PM
To: JoAnn Hackos; Chris Wong; Erik
Hennum; Grosso, Paul
Cc:
Subject: RE: [dita] indexing
question
Hmm ... first thoughts ...
If there is a mismatch, then no index
entry would be generated. Such errors could be found during proofing
or acceptance of a translated text by comparing the pre- and post-translation
indexes after the translation is done and the topics are reassembled.
> Index entries using <keyword> should be processed as
index terms referring to the beginning of the referenced topic.
Even though the metadata is not above the
title and shortdesc, if by some change the title and shortdesc are alone on a
page, the index entry should point to the page containing the title or (in
scrolling environments) should like to an anchor that causes the title to be
displayed at the top of the page.
> If you want an index term to span a group of topics ... Question: Is this allowed at all?
Yes. Is "do not do this"
feedback from the translation SC?
Best wishes,
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: JoAnn Hackos
[mailto:]
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 6:08
PM
To: Esrig, Bruce (Bruce); Chris
Wong; Erik Hennum; Grosso, Paul
Cc:
Subject: RE: [dita] indexing
question
Chris, Erik, and Bruce,
I want to bring up a concern that was
discussed at last Monday’s meeting of the Translation Subcommittee. We
are working on an indexing best practice that ensures that index terms do not
interrupt sentence flow for segmentation. In the discussion of index ranges,
the translation professionals were concerned about having to duplicate the
index tag content in the start and end tags. Please clarify for us if that is
indeed the case:
Startindexterm = DITA and Endindexterm =
DITA
The concern is that the indexterm may not
be translated exactly the same way by two different translators working on topics
in parallel or even by the same translator working at different times on
different topics. That is – if the index start and end ranges can span
topics (is that the case?).
There was also a concern that having the
same text entered twice might result in a spelling error that would affect
translation.
Here are the recommendations that the SC
has been discussing. Please let me know if there are misconceptions.
Insert index
entries that refer to entire topics in the prolog element using the
<keywords> tag
(prolog—metadata—keywords—indexterm). Index entries
using <keyword> should be processed as index terms referring to the
beginning of the referenced topic. clarify
Insert all
block-level index tags immediately following the start tag of the nearest
containing block element.
If an index
term is intended to span several elements in one topic, insert the start
range at beginning of start block (i.e., the parent block element) and the
end range markup at end of the end block element. See Chris Wong
Question: Is
this allowed at all?If you want an index term to span a group of topics,
insert the start range of the index tag in the prolog of the first topic
and the end tag in the prolog of the last topic in the DITA map. Do not do
this. Prolog across multiple topics.
Thanks for your help, … JoAnn
JoAnn T. Hackos, PhD
President
Comtech Services, Inc.
710 Kipling Street, Suite 400
Denver, CO 80215
303-232-7586
joannhackos Skype
www.comtech-serv.com
From: Esrig, Bruce
(Bruce) [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 4:23
PM
To: 'Chris Wong'; Erik Hennum;
Grosso, Paul
Cc:
Subject: RE: [dita] indexing
question
Well, we may need to discuss it, but here's a position statement.
------------
As Chris Wong wrote,
index entries are point-like by default.
Here's a potential accomodation.
Chris wrote: > We can leave open the possibility that a processor may elect to
treat an indexterm in a topic prolog as a page range: for example, if that
topic is deeply nested.
This one is a tempting accomodation, but
I'll try an argument that justifies not making this accomodation.
------------
Suppose that we are looking at a topic
with no nested sub-topics.
When indexing the first reference to an
item, the entry should generate a point reference to the initial point where
that item enters the discussion. If the item is a prominent item within that
scope, a reference to the initial point is sufficient, because the
reader is likely to be interested in a large fraction of the scope without
being prompted by an index entry.
If the item is a subsidiary item in the
scope and only occurs once, a reference to the initial point is
sufficient, because the item only occurs once.
If the item is a subsidiary item that
occurs multiple times, or if the occurrences span multiple adjacent scopes,
than a page range is appropriate.
--------------
Now applying these guidelines to
topic-level index entries ...
A topic-level index entry is an assertion
that the item is a prominent item within that scope. The reference is to the
topic as a whole, and a reference to the initial point is sufficient.
A start-of-range assertion at the topic
level is not well defined. How do you know in a single topic that there will be
other subsequent topics that will address the same item? Ranges are inherently
appropriate for spans across contents of a topic or contents of a grouping of
topics.
In a map, a start-of-range assertion does
make sense.
Best wishes,
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Wong
[mailto:]
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 6:05
PM
To: Erik Hennum; Grosso, Paul
Cc:
Subject: RE: [dita] indexing
question
One question that comes to mind is: why
would you want a page range that spans one and only one topic? For example, I
pulled out my old "XML in a Nutshell" and looked up "Arabic
Unicode block". This table spans 2 pages, but is only indexed with a page
number pointing to the start of the topic. That is because the topic is so
obviously self-enclosed that a single page reference is sufficient.
What I'd say is that an indexterm
in a topic prolog points to the topic. Page range markers in a topic prolog has
no meaning, since the indexterm is out of the content flow. So
index-range-start/index-range-end should be ignored. This will allow an author
to generate an index reference to a single topic by entering an indexterm in the
topic prolog.
We can leave open the
possibility that a processor may elect to treat an indexterm in a topic
prolog as a page range: for example, if that topic is deeply nested.
Chris
From: Erik
Hennum [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:08
PM
To: Grosso, Paul
Cc:
Subject: RE: [dita] indexing
question
Hi, Paul
(Grosso) and Indexing Enthusiasts:
To follow up on the index range question, we had a fair bit of discussion about
ranges last Fall. The consensus at the time was that ranges should be set
explicitly. A sample from the thread:
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/dita/email/archives/200510/msg00020.html
I guess my perspective remains that an indexterm in the prolog could be treated
as a special case of a general rule: that an indexterm covers the content of
its container and that processing emits a page range if the indexed container
extends to more than 2 pages.
Even so, I don't want to undo the progress we've made:
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/dita/download.php/18917/IssueNumber45b.html
Can we isolate any anomalies in the current indexing proposal and fix those
quickly without changing the fundamental approach?
Paul, are you aware of other hiccups besides the requirement to index an entire
topic from start of the title through the end of the related links or the end
of the nested topics?
Chris (Wong), as the lead on the indexing proposal, do you have any
suggestions?
Hoping that's useful,
Erik Hennum
"Grosso,
Paul" <>
"Grosso,
Paul" <>
06/29/2006 05:05 PM
To
<>
cc
Subject
RE: [dita]
indexing question
From: Erik Hennum [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, 2006 June 29 18:13
To: JoAnn Hackos
Cc: ; Grosso, Paul
Subject: RE: [dita] indexing question
That said, we still need a way to
generate a range over the whole topic.
Huh? I would have thought what you just said in the first
paragraph means that an indexterm within the prolog generates a range over the
whole topic. Now I'm really confused.
