Girish,
I
believe we are in violent agreement, but I was being unintentionally
obtuse. When I read your example code, my initial impression was that
the price was unique to that DR product and to the time in which it was
called. Based on your subsequent explanation, I believe we are in
agreement that the relevant interval here is time. There are separate
streams of data, "event type" and "price", that are coincident with the time
interval but are not a specific function of it; i.e., all are independent
variables.
This
implies that a control authority could send a constant stream of data covering
all events and times, and that the receiving system could be configured to
select only that data relevant to the local facility.
True?
Your
references to CAISO do inspire another question. OpenADR together with the
studies cited are only California oriented. Our OASIS members in France
(Laurent Guise and Francois Jammes) have asked if the work being done has any
non US centric input. Are you aware of any international
applications? Also, has there been any affirmative activity to see if
OpenADR specs would function within the market rules of the other US
ISO's? ERCOT LaaR, PJM Regulation and ISO-NE FCM all require automated
response and either are in the field or are close to implementation. It
will be difficult to promote OpenADR as a national standard if it does not
encompass the parameters of these programs. It probably does, but it's
politically important to be able to refer to specific
studies.
Thanks!
Phil
From: Girish Ghatikar [mailto:]
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 8:29 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [emix] Definition of a "Price
Interval"
Phil,
Thanks for
bringing this up and I think this is the issue with terminologies and NOT the
concept of use of time for intervals.
Based on my interactions
during technology integration of CAISO real-time market (RTM) with OpenADR, we have seen that intervals
could be used in different contexts. What you have is a definition of "price
intervals" is one element. For example, for CAISO, under "prices" on -- http://oasis.caiso.com/mrtu-oasis/
-- the intervals are used for time, price, etc. as seen below by
definitions.
"Interval Locational Marginal Prices: Five-minute
Locational Marginal Prices for all PNodes and all APNodes in $/MWh, for each
five-minute interval RTM. Posts the LMP, plus the Congestion, Loss and
Energy Components that makes up the LMP."
"Interval AS Clearing
Prices: Ancillary Services Regional Shadow Price for all Ancillary Service
types for all binding AS Regions and Sub-Regional Partitions. Posts 15-Minute
price relevant to the next 15 minute binding interval for RTM on a
fifteen minute basis."
While I think the "monetary interval" you have
is one important element for DR, other element is also the "time interval."
For example, the time interval will determine the end-uses that could be part of
DR strategies and for what duration (or not). The length (time) and the breadth
(kW) are equally important. The price will determine their willingness to
participate and time will determine if they can and by how much. This was also
one of the thing we looked at the recently concluded participating load pilot
(PLP) that we conducted with CAISO (see below).
Open Automated
Demand Response Communications in Demand Response for Wholesale Ancillary
Services
Kiliccote S., M.A. Piette, G. Ghatikar, Lawrence Berkeley
National Laboratory; E. Koch, D. Hennage, Akuacom; J. Hernandez, A. Chiu, O.
Sezgen, Pacific Gas and Electric Company; and J. Goodin, California Independent
Systems Operator. In the Proceedings of the Grid-Interop Forum 2009, Denver, CO,
November 17-19, 2009. LBNL-2945E. November 2009
http://drrc.lbl.gov/drrc-pubs-auto-dr.html
Moving forward, I think we should
acknowledge this and be clear of terminologies that are in use and have a
certain meaning -- they should retain their meaning as much as
possible.
Thank you,
Rish
Phil Davis
wrote:
Keep
in mind that when the ISO's refer to price interval in their reports and
analysis documents, they are referring to a monetary interval rather than a
time based interval. In other words, there is a $15 price interval
between an LMP of $45/mwh and $60/mwh. Most usage in analysis is asks
questions like "at what price interval do large facilities respond to DR
signals". These kinds of studies influence incentives and subsidies, and
may inform rate making in regulated constructs. However, in the markets,
the actual prices themselves are known well in advance of Dr events since they
are set at auctions.
When
modeling/forecasting for grid operations, the ISO's will use this research to
determine the likelihood of calling an event and the cost of that event, given
weather predictions at various degrees of confidence (of the weather).
Because of the usage, I would reverse the wording somewhat; i.e., that for a
given time interval, there should be a price associated with it.
Recipients would use this data, especially in automated systems either to auto
respond or to signal managers if prices exceeded a pre-set
level.
This
happens to be a period of rapid rules change following a relative period of
stability. Predictions are troublesome at best, but there seems to be a
national trend toward eliminating specific pricing for DR, and paying all
parties the generation equivalent of the energy product produced. this
is not without controversy, so our wisest course might be to allow for showing
prices for DR and for the underlying energy. This would support a value
calculation that encompasses both the overt value of DR plus the value of the
avoided purchase of energy for the same time interval.
Phil
Davis
________________________________________________________________________________________________
Phil
Davis | Senior Manager | Schneider Electric Demand
Response Resource Center | 3103
Medlock Bridge Road, Ste 100 |
Norcross,
GA 30071 | (: 404.567.6090 | 7: 678.672.2433 |
Skype: pddcoo *: | : Website: http://www.schneider-electric.com
From: Girish Ghatikar [mailto:]
Sent:
Friday, April 02, 2010 8:06 PM
To:
Subject:
[emix] Definition of a "Price Interval"
This came up during last week's eMIX TC
meeting -- What is the definition of price interval? What
elements/attributes are comprised in it?
For any price, there
should be a standard "Time" factor associated with it (unless the exception is
there is "one" price for all periods).
I think we should make a key
distinction of price schedule versus the interval (if we ever can) and how the
generic price intervals are different from their definition in DR signals (the
notion of DR events).
Let's say for example, a price-responsive DR
event in OpenADR may look something like this (I am not saying this is how
eMIX should address it as the goal of sending the information and subsequent
response may differ) --
<p:drEventData>
<p:notificationTime>2010-02-08T15:17:21.000-08:00</p:notificationTime>
<p:startTime>2010-02-09T00:00:00.000-08:00</p:startTime>
<p:endTime>2010-02-09T23:59:59.000-08:00</p:endTime>
<p:eventInfoInstances>
<p:eventInfoTypeID>PRICE_ABSOLUTE</p:eventInfoTypeID>
<p:eventInfoName>price</p:eventInfoName>
<p:eventInfoValues>
<p:value>0.03638841</p:value>
<p:timeOffset>0</p:timeOffset>
</p:eventInfoValues>
</p:eventInfoInstances>
</p:drEventData>
What you see above is a definition of time slot
(start and end time) that has various attributes associated with it. Other
attributes could be for example, load shed, % shed, etc. However, all of these
attributes are associated with one time-slot notion, which is defined by the
period of DR event.
Thank you,
RIsh
--
Rish Ghatikar
Lawrence Berkeley
National Laboratory
1 Cyclotron Road, MS: 90-3111, Berkeley, CA
94720
| +1 510.486.6768 | +1
510.486.4089 [fax]
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Rish Ghatikar
Lawrence Berkeley
National Laboratory
1 Cyclotron Road, MS: 90-3111, Berkeley, CA
94720
| +1 510.486.6768 |
+1 510.486.4089 [fax]
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