RE: [office] RE: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Table support for OpenDocument Presentations

I'm good with that suggestion. And I would think that we 
(or someone from our group) would be willing to help write/contribute 
documentation as needed....

From: Nathaniel S Borenstein 
[mailto:] 
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 12:10 
PM
To: 
Cc: 'Florian Reuter'; 
; ; 'Peter 
Korn'; Richard Schwerdtfeger
Subject: [office] RE: 
[office-accessibility] Re: [office] Table support for OpenDocument 
Presentations

Absolutely, but let me also be 
clear:  I think this is an issue both for the accessibility SC *and* for 
the ODF TC as a whole.  The issues may be at their very worst in 
accessibility, for several reasons, but it would be a mistake to solve this 
problem *only* within the context of the accessibility SC.  My preference 
would be to have an Implementation Advice SC that receives lots of input from 
the Accessibility SC.  -- Nathaniel
 

  
  

    "mike paciello" 
      <> 
      
05/11/2006 11:56 AM 
      
        
        

          
            
Please respond 
            to
<>

    
      
        
        

          
            
To

          Nathaniel S 
            Borenstein/Concord/IBM@IBMUS, "'Peter Korn'" 
            <> 
        

          
            
cc

          "'Florian Reuter'" 
            <>, <>, 
            <>, 
            <>, Richard 
            Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS 
        

          
            
Subject

          RE: 
            [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Table support for OpenDocument 
            Presentations

      
        
        

          
          

Well, in part this relates somewhat to the 
point that David Clark brought up today -- awareness and misinformation. 
Accessibility has a poor history in both areas. So, I believe it would be a 
great service to the community of ODF developers and implementers to produce a 
guide. 
  
- Mike 

From: Nathaniel S Borenstein 
[mailto:] 
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:49 
AM
To: Peter Korn
Cc: Florian Reuter; 
; ; 
; Richard Schwerdtfeger
Subject: Re: 
[office-accessibility] Re: [office] Table support for OpenDocument 
Presentations

We keep encountering this same discussion, over and over, in minor 
variants.  The more I see us work on the spec, the more urgently I believe 
we need to produce a non-normative but highly authoritative Guide for ODF 
Implementers. 

If 
OASIS can have an ODF Adoption TC, I'm sure it could also have an ODF 
Implementation TC devoted to producing such a guide.  Or, we could have an 
Implementation SC of the main TC, if we wanted to keep it more closely aligned 
with the latest issues regarding the spec.  We could even have an 
Implementation SC of the Adoption TC, on the grounds that the implementation 
advice is vital for adoption, but the technical content would be so high that I 
think that would be a poor choice.  As a last resort, we could even do this 
from outside OASIS entirely, though I think that would be the second to worst 
possible alternative.  (The worst, of course, would be what we are doing 
now:  Nothing.) 

At least twice a month, I think, I have been seeing issues raised in 
either the TC or SC that come down to "this isn't a spec issue, but it would be 
vital advice to implementers."  I think it's time to bite the bullet and 
make a plan to produce such a guide.  Any other thoughts?  -- 
Nathaniel 

  
  

    Peter Korn 
      <> 
Sent by:  
      
05/10/2006 06:49 PM 
      

    

      
        
        

          
            
To

          Richard 
            Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS 
        

          
            
cc

          Florian Reuter 
            <>, , 
             

        

          
            
Subject

          [office-accessibility] 
            Re: [office] Table support for OpenDocument 
        Presentations

      
        
        

          
          

Hi Rich,

I thought we'd 
discussed this - that these questions are entirely part 
of the user 
interface in presentations that wrap around the ODF table 

implementation.

I agree these are issues we have to work out with the 
folks implementing 
tables in presentations in our office suites, but I don't 
see how that 
impacts our XML encoding 
decision.

Regards,

Peter Korn
Accessibility 
Architect,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.

> When considering tables in 
presentations please consider user agent 
> issues.
>
> - Will 
the table area be clipped and require scrolling. In MSOffice 
> that does 
not happen?
> - Has the group addressed all import/export issues?
> 
- Will a frame be rendered in the user agent if it is embedded? 
> 
MSOffice does not. If we don't address this the layout will be a 
mess?
>
> We also need to ensure the author has the ability to 
define row and 
> column headers as are defined in the table 
construct.
>
> Rich
>
>
> Rich 
Schwerdtfeger
> Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility 
Architect/Strategist
> Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review 
Board
> blog: 
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/dw_blog.jspa?blog=441
>
> 
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -
> I took the one less traveled by, 
and that has made all the 
> difference.", Frost
>
> Inactive 
hide details for Florian Reuter 
> <>Florian 
Reuter <>
>
>
>     
                    *Florian 
Reuter <>*
>
>       
                  05/09/2006 02:17 
AM
>
>                 
 
>
> To
>             
     
> , 

>
> cc
>   
               
>
> 
Subject
>                 
 
> [office] Table support for OpenDocument 
Presentations
>
>               
   
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I just want to give a 
brief status description of the evaluation of the
> table support for 
OpenDocument presentations.
>
> Currently I see three different ways 
of adding table support to
> OpenDocument specifications:
> a) 
"native" table support
> b) Embedded object based table support
> c) 
tables in text boxes
> d) Drawing object plus annotation based table 
support
>
> ad a)
> The "native" table support would have the 
advantage, that tables are
> "first-class citizens" of OpenDocument 
presentations. An example would be:
> <draw:frame>
> 
<table:table>
> ....
> </table:table>
> 
</draw:frame>
> The above encoding is closest to Open XML and would 
ensure rountrip.
> The disadvantage of the above solution is, that 
currently deployed
> reader would ignore the <table:table> element 
and thus tables where
> missing in the document. This would require all 
vendors of OpenDocument
> processing applications to ship product 
patches.
>
> ad b)
> Encoding tables in OpenDocument 
presentations as "embedded objects"
> would be the best solution regarding 
backward compatibility. Encoding as
> "embeeded object" means nothing else 
than "use OpenDocument spreadsheet
> tables in presentations as embedded 
objects". An example is:
> <draw:frame>
> 
 <draw:object xlink:href="javascript:void(0);"
> xlink:type="simple" xlink:show="embed" xlink:actuate="onLoad" 
/>
> </draw:frame>
> The disadvantage of this solution is, 
that tables in presentations are
> no longer "first-class citizens" as 
they are e.g. in Open XML.
>
> ad c)
> OpenDocument allows in 
its current version that tables can appear within
> text boxes. However 
this currently not implemented in e.g.
> OpenOffice.org. For 
example:
> <draw:frame>
> <draw:text-box>
> 
<table:table>
> ..
> </table:table>
> 
</draw:frame>
> Here without any schema change table in 
presentations could be achieved.
>
> ad d) [suggested my Yue 
MA]
> Currently OpenDocument processing entities store tables in 
presentations
> as shapes, i.e. a table is "drawn", but the structure is 
forgotten. By
> simply annotating this "drawn" tables with the table 
structure
> information both backward compatibility as well as 
accessibility needs
> could be satisfied.
> The disadvantage of this 
is, that OpenDocument would get a rather
> "unconventional" second table 
model.
>
> I would like to finish the investigation phase know and 
start dicussing
> the prefered solution.
>
> Looking forward 
for your comments.
>
> Best regards,
>
> 
Florian
>
>
> 
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