Re: [cti] CybOX Containers in STIX

All,

We talked about this topic again on the working call and there seemed to be general agreement there as well that the embedded approach was preferred. Given that, and the fact that discussion has died down, I move that we open a ballot to confirm the approach to representing CybOX inside an observation as well as the current definitions of Observation and Sighting.

Before opening the ballot, though, can everyone please review the current sections in the Google Docs? I’d like to avoid the problem we’re having with Object Markings, where we get a lot of very good comments after the ballot has opened. I’d rather work through as much as possible before the ballot. I would call this priority one on STIX right now…if you only have 15 minutes this week to spend on STIX, please spend it reviewing the Observation and Sighting sections of the STIX TLOs document.

Observation: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F1c05GgYaJFV1Z04B8c_T3vEE-LRQTPExF24LvOQAsk/edit#heading=h.b2frlbuolfj

Sighting: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F1c05GgYaJFV1Z04B8c_T3vEE-LRQTPExF24LvOQAsk/edit#heading=h.k017w16zutw

Note that everything in the “cybox” key will be defined by the CybOX specification. In CybOX, that type is currently defined here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PSGv6Uvo3YyrK354cH0cvdn7gGedbhYJkgNVzwW9E6A/edit#heading=h.2p8taumnmgqi

John

From: Allan Thomson <athomson@lookingglasscyber.com>
Date: Friday, June 24, 2016 at 10:16 AM
To: "Jordan, Bret" <bret.jordan@bluecoat.com>, Jason Keirstead <[email protected]>
Cc: Trey Darley <trey@kingfisherops.com>, John-Mark Gurney <[email protected]>, "Wunder, John A." <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [cti] CybOX Containers in STIX

From: "cti@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti@lists.oasis-open.org> on behalf of "Jordan, Bret" <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, June 24, 2016 at 5:41 AM
To: Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>
Cc: Trey Darley <trey@kingfisherops.com>, John-Mark Gurney <[email protected]>, "Wunder, John" <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [cti] CybOX Containers in STIX

They can do that be referencing the Observations or other TLOs in STIX if they so desire.

Thanks,

Bret

Bret Jordan CISSP

Director of Security Architecture and Standards | Office of the CTO

Blue Coat Systems

PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050

"Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg."

On Jun 24, 2016, at 06:38, Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com> wrote:

I believe what DFAX's desire here is to be able to reference content previously defined *in STIX* and have valid cross-references to CybOX using the GUIDs.

-
Jason Keirstead
STSM, Product Architect, Security Intelligence, IBM Security Systems
www.ibm.com/security | www.securityintelligence.com

Without data, all you are is just another person with an opinion - Unknown

<graycol.gif>"Jordan, Bret" ---06/24/2016 09:30:33 AM---We understand the problem so much more now than we did back in DC. And the in looking at the struct

From: "Jordan, Bret" <bret.jordan@bluecoat.com>
To: Trey Darley <trey@kingfisherops.com>
Cc: John-Mark Gurney <jmg@newcontext.com>, "Wunder, John A." <jwunder@mitre.org>, "[email protected]" <cti@lists.oasis-open.org>
Date: 06/24/2016 09:30 AM
Subject: Re: [cti] CybOX Containers in STIX
Sent by: <cti@lists.oasis-open.org>

We understand the problem so much more now than we did back in DC. And the in looking at the structure it really does not makes sense to have a STIX TLO called cybox-container. In DC it was all a bunch of hand-waving, we never actually spelled out the contents of the container. But now that we have put pen to paper, it really does not fit or work.

Further, if other standards want to use CybOX they can use it the same way that STIX and MAEC are going to use it. MAEC for example is not going to use STIX objects to use CybOX data. That just does not make sense.

Thanks,

Bret

Bret Jordan CISSP
Director of Security Architecture and Standards | Office of the CTO
Blue Coat Systems
PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050
"Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg."

On Jun 24, 2016, at 03:15, Trey Darley <trey@kingfisherops.com> wrote:

On 23.06.2016 14:28:33, John-Mark Gurney wrote:

I will say that part of the reason that #2 was chosen at the F2F was
that there are use cases for other standards, like DFAX, where they
want to be able to reference the CybOX object directly. With #2, the
CybOX container now has a unique GUID that can be addressed, but as
was pointed out, this still doesn't prevent referncing the CybOX
data, as an implementation can refer to the GUID of the Observation
TLO.

This was the infamous Arglebargle discussion, which was both heated
and long. Option #2 was a hard-won compromise to support the needs of
DFAX as expressed by Eoghan Casey et al.

Personally, I'm happy to go with option #1 for all the reasons
elucidated by John and Allan but in consideration of the many hours of
debate that went into the option #2 compromise, we should reenter that
discussion with sensitivity.

From a technical perspective it is not clear to me why DFAX couldn't
define its own container for CybOX, much as STIX and MAEC are doing.

If I recall correctly (and please weigh in here, good people of DC3!)
the primary motivation behind having a container object living in
CybOX land was DC3's desire to reuse CybOX observables^Wwhatever we're
calling them now across STIX, DFAX, and MAEC.

It's probably worth devoting the next TC working call to this topic,
since it's a critical question for STIX Indicators, Observations,
Sightings, not to mention the ongoing work of the CybOX SC and our
friends over at DC3.

--
Cheers,
Trey
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