RE: building an object model of a XML schemas

[Stuart Naylor <indtec@eircom.net>]

Without getting into to some big grammatical debate you will see that I
have changed the subject.

But before that 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Lowery [mailto:jlowery@scenicsoft.com] 
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 10:30 PM
To: 'Bullard, Claude L (Len)'; Xml-Dev (E-mail)
Subject: RE: building an object model of a XML schema

<Len>
XML Schema is likely to get us through the next couple of years of the 
Web coming up to speed with mark-up systems.  A lot of this depends on 
Who ends up on the TAG and their backgrounds?  My opinion is 
Eventually, mark-up solutions tend to converge in pretty much the same 
Place they did last time round this track with different names.  So, 
Keep a copy of the SGML Handbook and hope the papers from 89 to 96 
Are still available just in case you want to prognosticate.  So far, 
Not too much is new as a result of XML except cheaper software.
</Len>

Firstly the web is based on mark-up systems 'HTML' which unfortunately
has been bastardised. Klondike XML Schema may well get us through the
next couple of years but that doesn't assert that it is correct or an
apt method.
Returning back to 89 could be the very reason why XML schema is such a
flawed concept as EDI / SGML technologies are hacked to provide common
solutions for today.

<Len>
For now, Schemas will do.  DTDs functionally worked ok if one 
understood where to stop trying to stuff properties into them and  
creating engorged definitions.  The phrase "markup is not programming" 
should be nailed to front of your machine.  There will always be 
things objects do better but as soon as you do that, you have to 
commit to a language and if as for so many, that language is wholly 
owned by a company, that isn't a good long term solution.  Then there 
is XML which is a product, but at least we can back up to SGML if and 
when we need to.  Even if some think that is a pestilence, I think they 
have to live a little longer to understand why range wars forced 
the government to finally send troops into the west.   As long as we can
always get to 
the escape hatch, I am not concerned.  If that gets welded closed 
by the TAG or anyone else, it will be time to find a different
authority. 
At that point, the W3C will have overstepped its mandate and outlived 
its usefulness. 
</Len>

This is not a go at you Len but I would love to be told exactly what
markup is supposed to be and don't get be wrong as I am not saying it is
a programming language.
My self I see XML as data content / designator for computer systems and
it does puzzle me that some believe it is anything else. The data may be
for human consumption but that is where it ends.
But you have to ask who and what is going to create markup and it can
safely be said that it isn't humans not by hand anyway. Tools are going
to be created and they will be created by programmers and many will be
unaware of the XML which lies underneath there presentation and method
of retrieval.



> "markup is not 
> programming" 

Whoa there, cowboy! 

In no way did I intend suggest that we write actual programs in this
stuff.
If I say 'hash map' to a C++ or Java programmer, they understand what I
mean
although their implementations might differ. If I say "store these
elements
in a hashmap (if you can), here's the key" in a schema, then I haven't
programmed a thing. The XML data model would say "hash map? what the
heck is
that? I'll ignore it." The C++ model would say "Oh, I getcha... I have
just
the thing."

Right now, that information is missing from XML Schema, and various code
generation implementations have their own unique ways of adding the
information. As it should be? I hope not.

Commit to a language? Yep, but an abstract language. It's like
committing to
UML, but simpler (well, you say not, but how can it not be? It's a
simpler
domain). No methods, just well-known 'archetypes'. Just as I don't know
how
an XML Schema double is mapped to a specific language, I wouldn't know
how
the archetype got implemented, or even what API the implentation was. It
is
a performance definition, if you will. Defined, not directed.


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