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   Re: [xml-dev] RDDL (was RE: [xml-dev] Negotiate Out The Noise)

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Borden" <jborden@mediaone.net>

> RDDL can be used as a way to create distributed java applications (via the
> RDDLClassLoader).

Which makes it a perfect framework to dustribute viruses,
so certification is unavoidable. As any person who've
written java applets would know, caching is also unavoidable,
because one can not afford making a request over the internet
every time some tag get's processed. And to keep the cache up
to date one should provide a mechanism for distribution, similiar
to those used by DNS / FidoNet. And so on.
I've written about this stuff already. It may be not bad idea to
re-read my first letters to this thread. All the ways of possible
abuse of namespace URL listed by you and not listed by you -
I thought of them already,  and I'm almost sure that some
other people, like Clark Evans, Don Park and I think Gavin  -
they also did.

I also know that this abuse is not ideal thing, because it should
not be talking about the namespaces at all, but I can live
with that. It is not important.

Any  kind of functionality you may think of, you can provide
*not* abusing the namespace URL. However, I understand
that because the loophole for abuse is huge, there is a strong
desire to abuse it before some big company does.

Not that I have anything against 'let's be first to abuse
namespaces URL' ( and you *already* started the abuse
with hidden schema extension ) , if that would be done in
reasonable, open way. Unfortunately, that is not the way
RDDL is developing and I said about that right from
the beginning.

As a result, I think that it is good that this RDDL thingy
did not make it to the W3C Note, because hidden abuse
*is* hidden abuse, no matter who is abusing namespaces,
would it be big company or a small company. Does not matter.

> I agree that the implications are huge. You cannot start to explain why
> is a bad thing to do. I consider this a good thing, indeed a basic part of
> some form of the 'Semantic Web', but I would never try to force you to do
> things this way. If you consider this a 'bad thing' and I consider this a
> 'good thing' then so be it.

As I've said many times ( and right from the beginning ), there are
just a few *particular* problems with RDDL that are:

1. The Process RDDL is developeing. "It is just a documentation,
with a few URLs, no it has some proprietary hooks into schema
parsers already, no - we don't actually know, but our document
is styled with W3C stylesheet and we got some people who
may like to promote this RDDL word with the articles that
contradict our own words for the reasons that nobody would

2. No clear understanding how would somebody gonna *use*
the resulting framework.

DNS had a clear problem to solve: "it is not convinient to use
numeric addressing".  FidoNet had a clear problem to solve :
"how to manage distributed unreliable network of volonteers
so that they can send letters to each other".

Namespaces was solving a clear problem : "how can
we differentiate between tag A used by one company and
tag A used by another company". I'm not saying that Namespaces
is a right answer to this problem, but at least the problem
itself was kinda clear.

XSLT / XSL? "We need to render documents".

CSS? "How can I place the style in one file
and then all my pages would look the same"

Everywhere. Any W3C paper. Any technical solution
out there has some *clear* problem that it tries to
solve and the *problem* can be explained in simple

What is the *clear* problem that RDDL is gonna solve?

There is *no* such.

Can you correct me? Can you? That would be a great day
for the Web. That would be the day we'l get the second
TBL who will lead the Web v 2.0 to it's *full* potential,
because current web is a huge book, and the next step is
to turn it into huge 'brain'.

Perhaps we would need to wait for years for the
*problem* to appear, because, maybe, nobody
needs the huge brain. If somebody would need,
that somebody would tell us what is the application
he want's to get produced.

Actually, I don't think you have any answer to the
only question I've asked you several times:
"how do you gonna use it?"

If playing fair, one should just be honest and say :

"I don't know. I just got excited with the fact that
I can grab the 'meaning' of some tag  from the internet,
and maybe some day I'l understand what is the purpose
of the code I'm writing".

Do you think that if playing fair you would get a single
bad word from me? No way. The only thing *I* need
from XML and the only reason why I'm wasting my
time with XML is that I think that maybe, some day
it would be possible to create ... RDDL.

Whatever. The task is really complex and it can not
be accomplished in the closed, spy vs spy, buzzword
producing way, which is a firm style of W3C that
is now copied by smart people for the reasons I will
*never* understand.

It not aways been like that!

So the first and the last thing I said - the problems I have with
RDDL are :

1. Process.
2. I don't understand who and how is gonna use the framework.

In result of this thread I got no information that would ensure me

1. Process of developing RDDL is open and sound.
2. Maintainers of RDDL have *any* clue on what they
really gonna do and *why*.

"We're thinking about fetching some stuff by
Namespace URI"  is *neither* a framework, *nor* a clue.

The question "how we gonna use it" is *really*  hard,
but if not understanding what is the *problem* RDDL
is gonna solve - discussing the words used in RDDL
paper becomes a scholastics dispute, which is a plain
waste of time.

I don't understand your desire to turn this discussion into
that kind of dispute, because I don't think you are 'evil', or
what you do is 'evil'.

However, the only way we *can* find the holy grail
of Web v 2.0 is to exchange ideas with fellow XML
developers that's why I think some of us are here
( and that was the kind of conversation that was
happening before I used the buzzword 'RDDL'  )

It is really a bad thing that in XML world buzzwords
become more important, than ideas. *That*  is evil.



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