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On Monday, October 21, 2002, at 01:49 PM, Gerben Rampaart ((Casnet
Brussel)) wrote:
>> Plus, Java is a good example of how not to do an OO language.
>
> O please, do Elaborate ...
>
Not here. I'll send you a private email.
> Gerben.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tblanchard@mac.com [mailto:tblanchard@mac.com]
> Sent: 21 October 2002 13:40
> To: mbatsis@netsmart.gr
> Cc: Paul Prescod; xml-dev@lists.xml.org; Bullard Claude L (Len)
> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] The Browser Wars are Dead! Long Live the Browser
> Wars!
>
>
>
> On Monday, October 21, 2002, at 11:36 AM, m batsis wrote:
>
>> tblanchard@mac.com wrote:
>>> No, none of these are enough (well, maybe java, only the current
>>> implementations aren't up to it). These only specify *appearances*
>>> not behavior. We want to get behavior into the UI layer. No more
>>> elaborate syntax is going to solve this problem.
>>
>> Java certainly does include behavior although seperation of conserns
>> is another subject. You may be interested in UIML [1] on that.
>
> I did mention Java might be an exception - but the implementations have
> been really lacking in performance. Honestly, when was the last time
> you saw a really useful (cr)applet? Plus, Java is a good example of
> how not to do an OO language.
>
> I looked at UIML and it looks like a bad joke to me. I can't remember
> when I've seen something less readable and more complicated that did so
> little. So much noise for so little signal.
>
> Your later comment about hammers is particularly applicable. ML's are
> really poor mechanisms for describing behavior. They're sort of poor
> mechanisms for describing relationships (they impose a sort of
> directional view via the element nesting that is artificial - is artist
> inside of CD or is CD inside of artist - depends). They're not bad for
> describing elements in streams. Sadly, the "well formedness"
> requirements in XML makes them not particularly good for general
> "markup" as well. Markup (think red pen) is more free form than that.
>
>> But XUL and company is by far the most well designed framework I have
>> some experience with. XBL [2] contains the behavior and provides
>> almost unlimited extensibility in a flexible approach.
>
> You ought to spend some time doing WebObjects development. Because
> XBL also looks like a mishmash of Java and XML and is overly verbose
> and unreadable. I'm not too impressed.
>
>>> The problem as I see it is that
>>> XML is a retrograde development in computer science and application
>>> architecture.
>>
>> Hammers are the best in what they do. Similarly, XML offers new
>> possibilities in exchanging and using datastructures, provides for
>> interoperability and many more. But this surely belongs to other
>> threads...
>
> Are we talking about application delivery over the web or not? Because
> you have to question the underlying assumptions and examine the
> evolutionary path that lead us to this location. Failing to consider
> that is to blindly accept that things are correct because thats the way
> they are.
>
>>
>>> In the early software days the emphasis was on behavior (C, Fortran,
>>> Pascal, procedures, functions) and data was secondary. Presently the
>>> emphasis appears to be data formats (and serial ones at that).
>>
>> I enjoy clever data formats that allow reusable behavior code.
>
> I do too. Sadly, we've stripped the behavior off of the data now. Its
> still inanimate - whether its xml or result sets, the data is still
> passive. I don't see this as progress.
>
>
>>> Somewhere in between was a balanced approach that bound behavior with
>>> data into entities we called "objects". It is my opinion that
>>> browsers need to move from glorified page layout engines with ugly
>>> scripting languages towards full blown distributed object engines
>>> that happen to have rich page layout capabilities.
>>
>> The problem is this sounds generic enough for one to say it's alrady
>> done ;-)
>
> Examples? I don't see one. If I did, I'd use it for developing the
> latest web based house of cards my client wants.
>
>
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