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   RE: [xml-dev] Moving the list

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Yep.  Problems.  I note that they were 
resolved as they were notified, and that 
list members assisted.  Some such as the 
unsubscribe bug are recurring.

I am mystified that Liam cannot subscribe 
or post.  That is strange but not personal. 
It simply makes no sense that an organization 
for creating XML standards would decline to 
subscribe the XML Activity Lead at the W3C. 
So, it's yet another symptom of a bad bug 
in the listserver, is my guess.

Lomas posted an email describing what is 
being done to fix the problems.  I suggest 
that Liam send him mail to notify him that 
he (Liam) needs to be subscribed and what efforts 
he has made to do this.  I think 
we should give Lomas and his staff time to 
work the problem.  Others think differently. 
When the alternatives are presented, it 
may mean a divided membership, or one list 
withers.  One can't actually move a list. 
One can start a new one and recruit.  Such 
was the fate of comp-text-sgml when Henry 
and Peter proposed XML-Dev.

If OASIS undervalues XML-Dev, that is not 
a technical problem, I agree.  But I don't 
know what is needed to ensure that any other 
organization offering to host XML-Dev will 
value it equally or better or that promises 
made during recruitment will be honored 
six months later.  So consider past behaviors 
of both technical quality and oversight. 
We've had a rather unencumbered existence 

However, Karl said that OASIS must provide value to its 
membership and one thing we should consider 
is if XML-Dev provides value.  Given that 
this is a good place to get XML questions 
answered (if not XSLT or all the other 
lists to which people are often redirected), 
is that our only value?  I consider 
XML-Dev the one place that the developers of 
specifications and standards must present 
their work and convince an experienced and 
often skeptical audience of the value of 
their work.   OASIS is in the standards 
business.  Perhaps one value of XML-Dev 
to the OASIS membership is that if the 
developers cannot convince the XML-Dev 
members of the value of an OASIS product, 
it is quite likely that the value of that 
product is limited, and they need to know 
that right up front.

If one can't sell it to the groundlings, 
it isn't likely to sell in the court.


-----Original Message-----
From: Simon St.Laurent [mailto:simonstl@simonstl.com]

clbullar@ingr.com (Bullard, Claude L (Len)) writes:
>Why don't we find out what it is that is going 
>wrong with the listserver first?  Give the technical 
>guy assigned to the task a bit of time to figure 
>out the problem.

It's a recurring problem, or set of problems. 

To quote Karl Best:
"I recall having sent almost identical messages to this list a couple of 
times a year over the past three years, obviously to no effect."

Taking a quick look through xmlhack.com archives, there are:

XML-DEV Hacked

Murray-Rust lashes out at OASIS over XML-DEV

OASIS declares victory on XML-DEV mailing list problems

Developing community facilities for XML-DEV

OASIS President apologizes, says deadline won't be met

XML-DEV's founder losing faith in OASIS

Is XML-DEV coming back?

XML-DEV withering

XML-DEV silent for days

The move itself was reported on in:

Based on Karl's message, it seems pretty clear that OASIS has other
things they could do with the resources they spend on xml-dev.  Moving
the list might well be good both for OASIS and for the list.

Simon St.Laurent
Ring around the content, a pocket full of brackets
Errors, errors, all fall down!
http://simonstl.com -- http://monasticxml.org

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