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Oh go ahead and respond, Joe. Go offline if it makes you happier.
Actually, the thread appeared to have converged and was closing
just before the howler arrived (insurance costs vs development
costs). Oh well...
1. Anyone with "20 years on the 'net" knows that anti-threads
spawn anti-anti threads and so forth. They will quickly create
more traffic on an unmoderated list than the original. So one
can look askance at indignant diatribes that claim to justify
stopping one. Smart monkies know that. Smarter ones know
not to call people monkies without smileys. Wise ones don't do it
at all. On any given day, we are evolving or devolving.
2. No one is required to answer. In fact, the observably
easiest way to get a thread to die is not to respond. Where
there are responses, there is interest and interest among
even two members is interest. Everyone else deletes or
ignores. See item 4.
3. No one is obligated to respond to queries from newcomers.
Some do and that is excellent. But there are lots of online
resources and Google is the best way to get to these. That
doesn't mean people won't or shouldn't answer; just that it
isn't required of anyone. I note that those who stick around
learn who to ask, how to ask, and what can be better answered
faster by Googling. Persistence counts.
4. Because the experienced 'monkies' knew that moderation
can become a means to quash dissent, they elected not to have
a moderator. Sometimes some wish we had one, and these are
different people at different times given different threads.
We tolerate and extend courtesy. As a result, this is a
remarkably flame free list even if it doesn't always look
like that. Comparatively, it is. It isn't that hard to
cherry pick topics or even that time consuming.
See what Joe says about the philosophical issues of SGML
and now XML. It isn't just a 'freakin' technology because
it sets as one of its principal requirements, freedom from
the lifecycle of the host. That is a political requirement
and now a technical necessity. It came of dedication and
long cooperative and very argumentative effort. SGML found
when it allied itself with the web community, a natural
ground in which to proliferate. Many are wiser and some
are richer for it. I do admire the pointy-bracket mavens
and I've known lots and lots of them. Old-timer or not,
I won't trade my 20 years for any other even if it came
with three Grammies. The best reward in my life was better
than awards; it was observable proof that humans will
work together to make a better life for all. The SGMLers
and now the XMLers, overall, are exemplary. That doesn't
mean they aren't noisy branchmates; it means they are.
There are times when I agree with the 'can we just engineer?'
sentiment, but the web is a crusader's paradise and that
can be spy vs spy, or the effort of a community to fight
a real threat to its health. Because one can't always
know when the fight breaks out why it broke out, it
pays to tolerate the din and when one has determined
interests, sometimes to join the fray, or just to let the
combatants bash their monkey brains out. Then the savannah
is quieter until the elephants wake up and start pushing
the hippos away from the water.
One more thing: nerves will fracture in the haiku/anti-ku
season which starts next month. Get your syllable counters ready!
len
From: Joe English [mailto:jenglish@flightlab.com]
Jay Vaughan wrote:
> What is it about XML people and their attitudes, anyway ... its just
> a freakin' technology, people, not a doctrine.
I agree with the overall sentiment, but here you are
quite mistaken.
Remember: XML began life as "SGML for the Web", and
SGML is as much a philosophy as it is a technology [*].
Ride it out; this thread will die down in a week or so.
--jenglish@flightlab.com
(desperately resisting the urge to respond to Len's last article)
[*] If you're curious about the philosophy of SGML, just
ask any old-time SGMLer [**]. There are still a dozen
or so of us left on this list, so you should get at least
two dozen answers.
[**] ... or a new-time SGMLer [***]
[***] e.g., Simon St. Laurent
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