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   RE: [xml-dev] A standard approach to glueing together reusable X ML fra

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I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "mapping" or "mappable entities" but
I can say that examiners, as I understand it, among other things, search for
patents that anticipate the claims of the application in hand.  If they find
none (and this is my take on what they do), then the application in hand is
presumed original.  Finding prior patents that are relevant is done by text
searching and by use of the US Patent Classification (see www.uspto.gov for
details).  Examiners themselves determine the classifications of a patent at
the time it is ready for publishing.  Applying any kind of markup to the
content of the specification or claim would require someone who would
understand the technology well enough to apply the appropriate categories,
so this is not too different from applying patent classifications, except
that it would require considerably more time and validation (accuracy
counts).  As far as I can tell, nobody, and I do mean NOBODY, at the USPTO
would be willing to pay for that, no matter how valuable it might turn out
to be, so again, there is no scaling issue.  In fact, there has been
considerable effort to reduce the cost of or even eliminate the US Patent
Classification, as alarming as that might be.

Semantic technologies in general suffer from this defect: they are terribly
expensive to implement on any useful scale since they require that someone
(a live human with intelligence, knowledge, and experience) apply the markup
that makes the web "semantic" (I'm beginning to hate that word).  Who pays?

Bruce B. Cox

-----Original Message-----
From: clbullar@ingr.com [mailto:clbullar@ingr.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 9:45 AM
To: Bruce.Cox@USPTO.GOV; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] A standard approach to glueing together reusable X ML
fragments in prose?

Not necessarily reusable.  But it is highly and usefully mappable. 
The content of applications do have typed contents, but it is conceptual,
more along the lines of what ontologies are designed to support as mappable

To determine patent validity, patent examiners do, I guess, try to determine
a patent's originality.  It is likely that research into their methods and
means will expose some markup opportunities.  There are likely more, but if
one thinks of ontological systems as 'points of view', the markup systems
that can be applied are derived by first determining those.

Thinking outside the box and being behind someone else's eyes have a lot in


From: Bruce.Cox@USPTO.GOV [mailto:Bruce.Cox@USPTO.GOV]

As a rule, there is little or no reusable content in patent specifications.
Not surprising, since they are *supposed* to be unique.  There is reusable
content in many of the publications produced by the USPTO that explain how
to file a patent, etc., but there are only a few dozen of such documents as
opposed to about 6.5 million published patent grants.  (Only about half of
those are available as text, starting in the 1970's, and only those
published since 1999-04-13 are available as SGML/XML.  If we convert the
backfile to our current XML DTD, we expect to need no more than a few
variations of the DTD to accommodate differences in publishing practice over
the period 1790 to the present.)

Next year, we will begin developing means to process patent applications and
correspondence with applicants in XML.  The current application backlog is
about 500,000, and with a minimum of say, four or five messages, the number
of transactions is fairly large.  Here, there is reusable content (some few
hundred "form paragraphs") that examiners pick from cascading menus,
depending on the nature of the correspondence.  (This is not random letter
writing, but highly ritualized gesture based on statute, rules, and past
litigation.)  Once the correspondence is sent, however, it is static, and
never changes.  The same is true for published grants and published
applications, that is, they are static.

As for searching, we use OpenText's BRS Search (does not support XML at

For us, then, it is unlikely that there ever would be a practical
application for reusable content on anything other than a fairly small

Bruce B. Cox

-----Original Message-----
From: dbexcom [mailto:lbradshaw@dbex.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:47 AM
To: mitch.amiano@softwareadjuvant.com; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] A standard approach to glueing together reusable XML
fragments in prose?

I am concerned to hear this approach, and others here, discussed, without
comment as to scaling issues regarding very large datastores (in XML
documents or in relational dbms) that might be ten to several hundred
terabytes in size.

Specifically, in the following respects:
1- sheer size problems such as disk access time, out of memory conditions,
and processor time to parse very large XML documents (say, 1,000 documents
of 1 terabyte each) or a very large number of XML documents of smaller size
(say, 5,000,000 5MB docs).
2- maintenance issues driven by the smallest of interface changes or
presentation changes, that result in hundred of thousands if not millions of
manual static schema modifications, rippling across either a very large
number of smaller XML documents and their specific schemas or through as
many as a thousand or so documents of 1 terabyte each in size. Even if such
ripple effect maintenance can be automated, the processing time required to
update, say,  5,000,000 XML doc files of 5MB each cannot be said to be real
time, so perhaps weeks of processing time is required before the interface
mods can be subject to just one full test.
3- consistency across versions, releases, XML standards and tool sets (MS,
SQL Server, MySQL, Oracle, etc) considering that a very large scale project
will take some time to mature (possibly years), and that a lack of backward
compatibility could drive massive changes into the basic XML design
structure and overall document architecture.
4- transmission time across interchanges - whether lan, web or intranet
based, the time to transmit and parse result sets to XQuery are often very
large, and for very large XML documents this processing time is unacceptably
long. People want results in five to eleven seconds, not minutes, not hours.

I have specific experience in very large paper based, and relational
database systems. From time to time, I see folks scale up systems that work
fine, up to a point, past which they are forced to redesign from scratch.

While I agree that broadly generalized discussions are the most common form
of technical exchange of information, having seen several of these pilot
efforts crash and burn, I feel a moral obligation to suggest that some
comment be made as to scaling issues, known propagation or ripple effects,
and sheer size problems that come into play when viable "average" 
architectures are scaled beyond their design parameters.

In reference to this specific method, I submit that when dealing with a very
large repository of prose, that a very large number of "profile documents"
is possible, and that the number of possible "profile documents" 
correlates to some index of the context and the subject matter and the usage
purposes (inquiry / result pairs), a result that to my mind increases or
scales up as the number of prose entities scales up. I will go further and
say that, for instance, for all articles ever published in the scientific
journal "Nature", or perhaps all items in the U.S. Library of Congress or
all pending applications and issued patent files in the U.S. 
Patent Office, this number of possible "profile documents" becomes very
large indeed. Though it may be possible to satisfy as much as a majority if
inquiries with a small number of such structures, the rest of the inquiries,
it seems to me, will require an ever increasing number of "profile
documents" to satisfy so that satisfying the last 1 percent of such
inquiries might require several thousands of such "profile documents", if
not tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands.

So, I am interested to hear about practical applications using XML only
implementation (XQuery, XML, XSLT, XPath, etc) that deal with wide ranging
subject matter, such as is found  in the scientific journal "Nature", or
perhaps all items in the U.S. Library of Congress or all pending
applications and issued patent files in the U.S. Patent Office, to a very
broad audience, across scientific disciplines and cultures (and possibly
languages), for a very large data repository of mixed content (prose,
graphics, slides, photos, video, sound, other streaming data sources or
media) measured in tens or hundreds of terabytes.

While XML is superb at document mark up, in my experience almost as good as
TeX, it does not strike me as the best tool for the job when dealing with
very large scale data repositories. Still, I have an open mind and perhaps
someone here can enlighten me.

Thank you.

At 10:28 PM 8/18/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>One of the difficulties in considering factoring out functionally 
>dependent entities from prose, is that the block of prose may itself 
>not be worth reusing. That is, the prose may be a one-shot document 
>whose original intent is simply to present information, not to act as a 
>reliable container for access by clients with a variety of intents.
>One thing I've done is to try to identify those concepts which are best 
>understood, are most firmly established, and which serve as the focus 
>of the stakeholders' activities and communications.  Then design a 
>profile document for each of these high-level concepts, which provide 
>context for making pointers and for generating identifiers. The 
>profiles are designed to provide some elements which are rigidly 
>structured, and other elements which are prose with mixed content. In 
>one case at least, this allowed me (with a stylesheet) to resolve most 
>cross references internal to the document itself, minimizing calls to 
>scan external documents. Also, depending upon the nature of your data 
>and your validation techniques, you may be able to use the mixed 
>content prose as the source of the definitive information, rather than 
as glue.
>It is certainly something a good CMS can help with, but I've also used 
>DSSSL and XSLT/XPath for doing just this sort of thing with reasonable 
>results. You might also want to check out DITA by Michael Priestley et al.
>of IBM, which I think intends to facilitate topical reuse.
>Roger L. Costello wrote:
>>Hi Folks,
>>I am working with some people who wish to migrate from an all-prose 
>>format to a prose-plus-reusable-XML-fragments format.
>>They have some data in prose that is useable in many contexts.  They 
>>want to break out that reusable data  into XML fragments.  However, 
>>they want to continue to provide the prose style.
>>For example, consider this prose data:
>><para>The city of Miami, Florida (pop. 1, 234,000) is a sprawling city 
>>with many attractions.  Miami Beach is a popular attraction.  The 
>>spring tide is ... The neap tide is ... </para> Examining this prose 
>>we can extract reusable info about the city of
>><City id="Miami">
>>     <state>Florida</state>
>>     <population>1,234,000</population>
>>We can also extract reusable info about tide data on Miami Beach:
>><TideData id="MiamiBeachTides">
>>     <springTide>...</springTide>
>>     <neapTide>...</neapTide>
>>The problem now is to create a framework which allows the prose to 
>>bring-together the independent, reusable XML components.
>>Conceptually, what is desired is a "glue framework" like this:
>><para>The <ref href="Miami.xml"> is a sprawling city with many 
>>attractions.  Miami Beach is a popular attraction.  The tides are <ref 
>>Thus, the prose is "glueing" together the XML fragments.
>>Is this a problem that you have experience with?  What  "glue 
>>framework" have you used?  What strategy did you use to merge the XML 
>>fragments with the prose?  Is there is a standard way of combining 
>>semi-structured data with structured data?
>>The xml-dev list is sponsored by XML.org <http://www.xml.org>, an 
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