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   Re: [xml-dev] Re: XML and the Relational Model

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I mean database in the academic sense, as defined by Knuth and by Codd, as 
a set of data with specific characteristics not the least of which is 

I think most people here mean a data group when they use the word database.


Larry Bradshaw

At 11:16 AM 8/26/2003 -0400, Jonathan Robie wrote:
>At 02:18 PM 8/25/2003, lbradshaw@dbex.com wrote:
>>So when someone says to me that an XML doc is, also, a database, and is 
>>better at being a database than Oracle (or your favorite vendor) it gives 
>>me heartburn. Someone actually said that to me, quite emphatically, recently.
>Depends on what you mean by a database. If you mark up a Shakespeare 
>document, you can do rather useful queries on it. A relational database is 
>a bad way to represent a Shakespeare play.
>>When I responded that my concern was that the embedded logic in the XML 
>>doc file did not support normal forms, or relations, their response was 
>>"what do you mean.... relations?"
>I am not sure what you mean by embedded logic. You can have a database 
>without tables. Relational databases do not "support" normal forms, 
>database designers use normal forms to create database designs.
>>For sure, people are trying to do terabyte systems that integrate 
>>normalized data and legacy document data stores (such as the journal 
>>"Nature"), primarily in XML, that is to say by converting out of an RDBMS 
>>like Oracle and into pure XML docs without a dbms back end. This is the 
>>source of my concern. They need some guidance, and will certainly receive 
>>it, in one form (gentle comments in forums like this one) or another 
>>(when their systems fail in production, or worse, never get past failed 
>>prototype constructs).
>>Still, I remain open minded, and if someone can offer proofs that support:
>>- XML as a best practice (in any regard)
>Look at web messages, delivery of information to web sites, some kinds of 
>technical documentation.
>>- XML as supporting RM
>It doesn't.
>>- XML as a programming language (embedded logic, etc)
>It isn't. But if you are interested in XML-centric programming languages, 
>I suggest you check out XQuery.
>>- XML as ISO 9000 compliant
>>- XML as CMM complaint
>What do either of these have to do with the underlying database model?
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