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   Re: [xml-dev] Python and JSON vs XML???

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Who _hasn't_ designed a text based data representation language? ;-}

It would be interesting to collect these designs and examine them for 
common characteristics. Some features of my last effort that I suspect 
would appear in a number of others:

- No attributes and no "normalization".
- No DTDs or entities.
- Use of brackets { [ ] } etc. instead of end tags.
- Sequences (a la XQuery) at the document level.
- Parse much faster than XML (of course).

Bob Foster

Pete Cordell wrote:
 > FWIW - I've also developed a text based data representation language,
 > including on the wire format and, more significantly from what I have
 > seen of other proposals, a message specification language.
 > I lowered the priority on it because the force behind XML and XML Schema
 > seemed to huge too compete against (Betamax / VHS type arguments etc.)
 > Whether the observations made below represent a genuine move away from
 > XML, or represent a small pocket of newly discovered dissenters I don't
 > know. Personally,  in the data representation space I find that
 > commercially I'm interested in XML Schema being successful, but
 > aesthetically it would be nice for something like my proposal to be
 > successful.
 > I targetted this at the IETF, but at the time they seemed to be going
 > the W3C schema route.  Maybe I should knock on their door again!
 > For those interested in more, I call it Lumas (Language for Universal
 > Message Abstraction and Specification) and there is a taster at:
 > http://tech-know-ware.com/lumas/lumas-example.html
 > and a spec at:
 > ftp://ftp.isi.edu/internet-drafts/draft-cordell-lumas-03.txt
 > Pete.
 > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Champion"
 > <michaelc.champion@gmail.com>
 > To: "XML Developers List" <xml-dev@lists.xml.org>
 > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:04 AM
 > Subject: [xml-dev] Python and JSON vs XML???
 > I note with interest that the world seems to be going in several
 > directions at once with respect to the relationship between
 > programming language objects and XML.
 > For some time now we've seen the JSON "fat-free alternative to XML"
 > http://www.crockford.com/JSON/xml.html direction that some in the AJAX
 > world are taking to address both XML's inefficiency and the mismatch
 > with programming languages.    Now I see that many in the Python
 > community have a similar attitude toward XML
 > http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2005/08/24/py-xml.html  and encourage its use
 > only when necessary to exchange data with non-Python apps.
 > W3C seems to be going in a more conventional direction,  thinking
 > about a working group to define schema patterns for databinding
 > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws/2005Jul/0000.html
 > Likewise it is wrestling (behind the member-only firewall, sorry) with
 > the results of the XML Binary Characterization working group's
 > suggestion to standardize a binary XML format to address XML's
 > perceived inefficiency as a data interchange format in some scenarios.
 > It might be inferred from
 > http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,2180,1837433,00.asp and
 > http://commnet.microsoftpdc.com/content/sessions.aspx (query for
 > "XML") that Microsoft is addressing the programming - XML mismatch not
 > by moving away from XML but by supporting XML-friendly concepts deeper
 > in programming languages.  (Details will be announced at PDC, until
 > then ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies).
 > I'm not sure what to make of all this, other than that there is a lot
 > of dissatisfaction with the status quo with respect to XML and
 > programming, and a lot of experimentation going on to address it.
 > Some approaches might threaten XML's story as a universal data
 > interchange format, or might revitalize it by scraping off the cruft,
 > we shall see.  A few questions I'd be interested in hearing others'
 > take on:
 > -  I'm trying to understand whether JSON has a value proposition
 > outside of AJAX scenarios. Is JSON or Python  significantly faster to
 > parse into usable objects than data-bound XML?   Is anyone suggesting
 > it (or some Pythonic equivalent) to address the types of use cases
 > that binary XML is targeted at?
 > - Could something like JSON become Yet Another Infoset Serialization
 > Format You Have To Deal With if binary XML gets momentum and opens up
 > the possibility of alternative serializations for different
 > environments? Or is it just conceptually easier to deal with a single
 > object syntax rather than fooling with XML when you have the luxury of
 > working in the same dynamic language in all parts of a system, so and
 > this really isn't a threat to XML's value proposition?
 > - The idea of programming languages in XML syntax seems to be on the
 > wane (other than XSLT of course, which is not *really* a programming
 > lanuage even if it is Turing-complete).  The idea of integrating XML
 > ideas into programming languge syntax seems to be on the rise,  e.g.
 > the JSON and Python stuff, E4X, C-omega and friends, Java's apparent
 > plans in the Dolphin release, etc.  Anyone disagree?
 > - What happened to the "XML is text, dammit" advocates who used to
 > rant about how all this is misguided nonsense?  Quietly getting their
 > work done, obliviously watching TV in the retirement home, lurking
 > patiently to say "I TOLD YOU SO" when the smelly stuff hits the fan,
 > or what?


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