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   Re: [xml-dev] Names As Types

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I may well have bent the conversation into a tangent.  I admit that by now  
I'm totally confused by the turtle metaphor.

I thought I understood it when it was with respect to the "are you a  
turtle" question.  If you are not a turtle then you are the person at the  
end of the stack of turtles.  Turtles in the stack have two primary  
functions: relaying the force of the weight of the higher parts of the  
stack downwards to the next turtle, and relaying the support of the earth  
(or the bottom person) upward to the next turtle.  These are functional  
and well defined roles that support and maintain the stack.

I don't know what the top and bottome turtle do.  The bottom turtle is a  
person who undertands why it's all there and the top turtle provides a  
resting spot for the sun?

Also, I am deeply intrigued but utterly confused by this:

>> This is the component
>> specification problem of
>> political inclusion by reference (consensus on steroids).


On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 15:39:31 -0700, Vladimir Gapeyev  
<vgapeyev@seas.upenn.edu> wrote:

> Hm, I am starting to understand something: you appear to be talking  
> about stacks of turles that do {thinking about, specifing (and reading  
> other's specs), setting goals, designing, implementing, using} OF  
> applications / systems, XML-based or not.  And I thought the talk was  
> about stacks of turtles that ARE themselves XML-based applications /  
> systems!
> Can one even hope to conceptualize any useful stacks of the first kind?  
> That's just a mess of communicating individuals.  Only math and software  
> coming out of this mess are real.  [Wow, I'll call this platonism of the  
> 3rd millenium!]
> Vladimir
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005, Bullard, Claude L (Len) wrote:
>> Kind of an abstract stack for a computer, yes?
>> But look at turtle5 (or 4 for C turtles): English.
>> Often that is exactly the semantic language of
>> choices.  Vladimir points out RDF, etc., and
>> fine, but it is more common to find English.
>> For example, from a recent draft spec [1]:
>> "<Vehicle>	A motor-driven conveyance designed to carry or transport
>> something (Operator, passengers, cargo)
>> Example: (See Resource Category Examples Tables)
>> Source: IEEE 1512, GJXDM, VEDS, FEMA Resource Typing (FRT), ROSS
>> NOTE 1:  GJXDM uses the term "Property" for Aircraft, Boats, Commercial
>> Vehicles etc.
>> It excludes trailers and boats from "vehicle"
>> NOTE 2: GJXDM also has "Property Physical Details" (physical desc)"
>> NOTE from Len:  the source names records of authority where authorities
>> expressed a choice.  One
>> hopes these aren't in conflict.  Substitutions are dangerous so  
>> limiting the
>> choosers of choices
>> to only a few turtles can be advantageous. This is the component
>> specification problem of
>> political inclusion by reference (consensus on steroids).
>> So given this and a wrapper that points to whatever points to
>> the choosing turtles, the turtles dance together pretty well.
>> RDF may be too expensive for the job.  English may work well
>> enough.  RDDL anyone?
>> Types may be ambiguous.  That is fine.  A system without superpositions
>> is a) inflexible b) non-organic.   It is a question of the a) resources
>> consumed making a choice including time b) the consequence(s) of a wrong
>> choice c) the payoff.
>> What is the impact of using substitution groups on the turtle stack?
>> len
>> 1.  Emergency Data Exchange Language (EDXL)Standard Format For Resource
>> Messaging
>> From: Nathan Young [mailto:natyoung@cisco.com]
>> OK, learning from Vladimir's example how about this stack?
>>  1. People
>>  2. private ideas
>>  3. private tools
>>  4. shared ideas
>>  5. shared vocabulary/language
>>  6. shared tools
>>  7. shared processes
>>  8. people
>> examples of each layer
>>  1. me
>>  2. hungry
>>  3. stick I use to pick my teeth
>>  4. "non-zero sum game"
>>  5. English
>>  6. XML (or the hammer/nail/lumber combination for construction)
>>  7. network computer application (or an assembly line factory)(or a
>> freeway)
>>  8. mouse wigglers (or widget buyers)
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Nathan Young
A: ncy1717
E: natyoung@cisco.com


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