Re: [xml-dev] Recent allegations about me

[Robin Cover <robin@oasis-open.org>]

Fascinating.

"There is a standard or there isn't a standard."

That assertion makes nominal sense if I am looking for
an electrical outlet installed in my house (wall)
into which I may plug the electrical cord for
the digital camera AC adapter I bought yesterday
in Plano, Texas.

In what domains does it make sense to say

"There is a standard or there isn't a standard." ?

I'd be very reluctant to talk about a single "standard"
for XML file formats for office applications.  How would
that single "standard" be established, enforced,
and ultimately deposed in favor of a better single standard?
The mind boggles.

Robin

-----------------

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Rick Marshall wrote:

> You know what the worst aspect of all this is?
>
> They're not really standards.
>
> Having the imprimatur of a standards organisation no longer means you
> are reading a standard. Why? Well now there's 2 document storage
> standards which is an oxymoron. There is a standard or there isn't a
> standard.
>
> Why hasn't/can't the W3C or OASIS stepped in and mandated a standard as
> they are doing with everything else. Or has Microsoft simply taken the
> line (again?) "we don't care - do what you like, this is what we're doing".
>
> The cost to the industry of 2 groups (microsoft and osf in this case)
> who can't or won't cooperate on standards is already large and it is
> about to become huge.
>
> There again maybe it just opens business opportunities for others to
> provide a whole new generation of translation tools.
>
> The jury can now start deliberating on whether this is a consequence of
> XML, and whether it's good, bad, or inevitable.
>
> Rick
>
>
> Len Bullard wrote:
> > It would be interesting to know what kinds of facts are in dispute for the
> > topic of OOXML.  As far as a Microsoft customer is concerned, OOXML can only
> > be a good thing.
> >
> > For the rest of the market, it seems that even expert editing is not good
> > enough; only adversarial slices that keep the issues in play without
> > resolving them into a fair analysis.
> >
> > The tabloid web press rejoices because their registers fill up with the
> > marketing placements that have to be purchased to offset the free press
> > given to the Microsoft competitors.   Profiting by this, the press has no
> > incentive to figure out what is and is not true.
> >
> > Analysts are similarly rewarded.  The customers are left to figure it out on
> > their own or to purchase ever more expensive consulting.
> >
> > Instead of trending toward an open information system that benefits the
> > public, government and industry, the web becomes the ties that bind them to
> > ever rising costs for IT infrastructures.
> >
> > So be it.   A cool Vista emerges before us.
> >
> > We see the arc of mob violence as the villagers go calling at the windmill
> > when the one-armed constable calls them to stab the beast in Redmond with
> > their pitchforks.   Because this has become a habit, it is no longer cool
> > but because it continues to erode market share, it requires a forward
> > looking strategy.
> >
> > Perhaps it is time for Microsoft to acknowledge that every attempt they make
> > to open up their products will be forked over by the village idiots who do
> > not buy their products to the detriment of the village idiots who do.
> > Perhaps it is in the best interests of their customers to close the products
> > the same way that Apple does even as Apple advertises itself as the 'cool
> > computer'.  Apparently, closed systems are 'cool' because they are easier to
> > use.  Given the political problems and higher costs of interoperability, it
> > may be in the interest of Microsoft customers to dedicate the resources to
> > improving productivity and ease of use, the hallmarks of the cool closed
> > system.
> >
> > Sun and IBM can continue to bear the costs of their populist but uncool
> > ideals on the backs of their stockholders.  Other companies can decide if
> > they wish to continue paying their engineers to work on open source
> > products.   Municipalities, States and nations that wish to work with those
> > products can continue to pay consultants to cobble them together and cross
> > their fingers that their evolution continues and can keep pace technically
> > with the closed systems.  That's fine.  Civil servants are never cool
> > anyway.
> >
> > There will be no legal or moral obligation for the closed systems to
> > interoperate past those legally obligated by signed contracts among paying
> > cool customers.  They pay for cool clothes and more
> > expensive-because-they-are-cool-when-closed earPods so this isn't a stretch.
> > The public of course will benefit from such arrangements as they have in the
> > past by buying the cool products and the knockoffs.
> >
> > Since it seems unlikely that this or other groups can openly fairly and
> > rationally formulate a means to discipline editing of open resources such as
> > wikipedia, or determine formal means to categorize and ascertain the truth
> > of these articles, it will become necessary for other groups to take on the
> > task of labeling these resources much as product test groups do.  Such
> > criteria and test results will be published and those who wish to ensure
> > that their family, employees or customers use high quality useful
> > information can subscribe to these just as they now subscribe other kinds of
> > site filters.
> >
> > I'm cool with all of that... one idiot to another.
> >
> > len
> >
> > From: Manos Batsis [mailto:manos_lists@geekologue.com]
> >
> > Tei wrote:
> >
> >> But political editing, comercial editing, and other partisan editing
> >> is discouraged. Because NPOV works better with neutral people behind
> >> facts and discusions.
> >>
> >
> > I may be missing the context here, but neutral parties are often
> > incapable of realizing important parts of disputed issues. Ideally,
> > community based information sources should equally allow supporters of
> > different views to demonstrate those.
> >
> > When that occurs in the same chunk of information (i.e. a wikipedia page
> > or an article elsewhere) the reader(?), enjoys a round-up that allows
> > the drawing of his or her own conclusions. Well, in theory.
> >
> > It often the case that a dispute does not occur (only) due to
> > misinformation or distortion of facts. Some times people simply
> > appreciate different, conflicting facts or theories over a subject.
> >
> > Sadly, the only meaningful definition of "neutral" in this case, is
> > being responsible of including all views and claims in the information
> > presented. This function, when practiced correctly, naturally results in
> > bearing the complaints of every side involved.
> >
> > All the above are generalizations of course, but also my view on the
> > matter. I have no doubt on Rick's integrity or quality of work. I just
> > do not really believe the setup serves any real purpose :-)
> >
> >
> >
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