Re: [xml-dev] Defining an XML vocabulary: specify syntax, semanti cs, an

["Fraser Goffin" <goffinf@googlemail.com>]

Perhaps other complementary vocabularies that are closer to process
modelling are required, including maybe BPEL anf other workflow
languages that provide a target for the data instance ?

Fraser.

On 11/04/2008, Len <cbullard@hiwaay.net> wrote:
> It's a reality statement, Noah.  You are taking the position that the
> abstraction which *enables* processor independence is more important than
> the specification of the processor that can process the abstract data.
>
> That's wrong for building practical systems.  Independence is right, but you
> are dismissing the question out of hand.  Data designers shouldn't dismiss
> questions better asked of process designers.
>
> OOP?  Sometimes we handle data as data rows, too.  Why would my customer
> want rows that they can't display, edit, delete, add, spell check, search,
> truncate, attach, detach.... and so on.
>
> Data independence enables multiple semantics.  Multiple semantics do not
> disable data abstraction.  They do have the effect of tensors over the
> values and the stability of the information.  They hold them within
> predictions.
>
> Objects are a kind of implementation or producer.  I may not care that the
> format they consume is abstract, I do care what roles they perform when
> doing that.
>
> Interface specs act as a limiter/selector over the set of valid datasets.
> Roles organize interfaces.  Roles define behavioral graphs.  That is one
> model for organizing permissions for operations over data.  If not roles,
> event-compatible graphs can.  (See X3D for a model).  You can combine those.
>
> D'oh.
>
> So what I am suggesting is Roger rephrase his question not in terms of the
> XML abstraction, but the handlers as networked services.
>
> Which means, probably, the answer is SOAP or whatever REST definition works,
> but the answer is not found exclusively in the XML without adding another
> specification.
>
> len
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com [mailto:noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 6:00 PM
> To: Len Bullard
> Cc: Costello, Roger L.; Fraser Goffin; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Defining an XML vocabulary: specify syntax, semanti
> cs, and BEHAVIOR?
>
> Len Bullard wrote:
>
> > The question might be better phrased by specifying the actor that is
> > instructed.  No format without a format handler.
>
> Well, that seems to be the opposite of the position I was taking.  When I
> set my resume down in an XML document, I don't have some particular actor
> in mind.  Sometimes the "actor" will be a "hire me" application. Sometimes
> the same resume can go into a repository of resumes of those who work for
> my current employer.  Sometime it might be used as input to a search
> application.  Similarly, an XML document giving the inventory of some
> warehouse can be input to a reporting application, an order planning
> application, etc.  In many, though certainly not in all cases, the power
> of XML is that there can indeed be formats without format handlers.  "No
> format without a format handler" is pretty close to the object-oriented
> approach; there are things for which OO is very good, but XML can be good
> for other things too.
>
> Noah
>
> --------------------------------------
> Noah Mendelsohn
> IBM Corporation
> One Rogers Street
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> 1-617-693-4036
> --------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Len Bullard <len.bullard@uai.com>
> 04/10/2008 12:06 PM
>
>        To:     noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com, Fraser Goffin
> <goffinf@googlemail.com>
>        cc:     "Costello, Roger L." <costello@mitre.org>,
> xml-dev@lists.xml.org
>        Subject:        RE: [xml-dev] Defining an XML vocabulary: specify
> syntax, semanti cs, and BEHAVIOR?
>
>
> Not much time for this:
>
> The question might be better phrased by specifying the actor that is
> instructed.  No format without a format handler.
>
> XML doesn't care what you intend to do with information.
>
> So is the question: what is the optimum way to specify processor behavior
> for some given XML and some given processor?
>
> len
>
>
> From: noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com [mailto:noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com]
>
> I think the question ultimately proves to be circular.  There are many
> uses of XML:  for some of those uses, the whole point is to encode
> behavior, and for some uses it's just to encode information.  The most
> obvious example of the former would be an XML serialization of some
> imperative set of instructions:  go to the store, buy some yogurt, go
> home, eat it.  For such uses, of course it makes sense to define
> "behavioral information".   In other cases, XML is used to encode just
> information or data.  For example:  "Noah's phone number is 555-1234".  I
> claim there need not in general be any preferred behavior associated with
> receiving or encountering an XML document encoding this information.
> Should you dial my phone number every time you open the XML file?  Should
> you add it to your address book again?  If the answer is yes, then your
> goal was not to encode my phone number, it was to encode an instruction
> for doing something with my phone number.  So, it depends what you're
> trying to do.
>
> I will say that one of the most important aspects of XML, as opposed to
> say OO programming, is that it covers both of these cases reasonably
> directly (though XML can be a pretty clumsy way to encode detailed logic
> or instructions).  To just say "Noah's phone number is 555-1234" in Java
> really isn't straightforward, though there certainly are Java idioms
> (getPhoneNumber(), setPhoneNumber)) that approximate it.  Having data that
>
> can be reused in many different ways is very important.
>
> Noah
>
> --------------------------------------
> Noah Mendelsohn
> IBM Corporation
> One Rogers Street
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> 1-617-693-4036
> --------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Fraser Goffin" <goffinf@googlemail.com>
> 04/10/2008 04:23 AM
>
>        To:     "Costello, Roger L." <costello@mitre.org>,
> xml-dev@lists.xml.org
>        cc:     (bcc: Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM)
>        Subject:        Re: [xml-dev] Defining an XML vocabulary: specify
> syntax, semantics, and BEHAVIOR?
>
>
> To some extent the behavioural and semantic coupling are perhaps the
> most useful parts of the vocabulary insofar as interop is concerned.
> How do suggest that this information is conveyed beyond the basic
> syntactical convention (i.e. an XML instance element called 'Book' in
> the namespace 'urn:TreatThisAsALiteraryTextType' MUST have a specific
> meaning and MUST be processed in a specific way).
>
> For most custom vocabularies (I mean one that I might create between a
> trading partner and myself) today this level of specification is
> typically conveyed 'out of band' right, that is, there is nothing
> beyond the naming convention to express it ?
>
> Does the semantic web have anything to offer ?
>
> Fraser.
>
> On 09/04/2008, bryan rasmussen <rasmussen.bryan@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >  QUESTIONS
> > >
> > >  1. When defining an XML vocabulary, should behavioral information
> > >  always be specified?
> > no.
> > >
> > >  2. Does it make sense to define an XML vocabulary without specifying
> > >  behavioral information?
> > yes
> > >  3. Are there two categories of XML vocabularies:
> > >
> > >  (a) XML vocabularies with behavioral instructions
> > >  (b) XML vocabularies without behavioral instructions
> > >
> > yes. Although I think vocabularies without behavioral instructions are
> > vocabularies that would normally be understood as purely data
> > specifying in nature.
> >
> > >  As shown above, XSLT, XML Schema, and XHTML are XML vocabularies that
> > >  fall in the first category.
> > >
> > >  Consider a "Book XML vocabulary."  Here's a sample document that
> > >  illustrates the Book XML vocabulary:
> > >
> > >  <?xml version="1.0"?>
> > >  <Book>
> > >     <Title>The Wisdom of Crowds</Title>
> > >     <Author>James Surowiecki</Author>
> > >     <Date>2005</Date>
> > >     <ISBN>0-385-72170-6</ISBN>
> > >     <Publisher>Anchor Books</Publisher>
> > >  </Book>
> > >
> > >  Suppose I write a specification for this XML vocabulary.  For each
> > >  element I specify its contents and the intended usage.  But suppose
> > >  that I don't instruct application developers on the (default and/or
> > >  mandatory) behavior of each element.  How will I certify that the
> > >  application is compliant?
> >
> >
> > Because the general purpose of a Book vocabulary in all the examples
> > I've seen is in the holding of book specific data. There are of course
> > real world Book specifying vocabularies that are concerned with how a
> > 'book' must behave, the behavior being specific to a particular type
> > of media.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Bryan Rasmussen
> >
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