Re: [xml-dev] XML support in browsers?

[Robert Koberg <rob@koberg.com>]

Hi,

First: the support is there in browsers (except Opera not handling the  
document function, but really, who cares?). Once the templates are  
cached (after reading the XSL DOM and parsing to a processor) it i  
usually the fastest templating available in the browser. More inline...


On Jun 7, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Jim Tivy wrote:

> The time has come," the Walrus said,
> "To talk of many things:..." Lewis Carroll.
>
> There seem to be a number of issues here:
>
> 1. How prevalent is the use of JSON vs Xml for a client(browser)/ 
> server data
> format.
> 2. In the Xml case, how many javascript programmers use DOM vs XSLT.
>
> My perception was that many are using AJAX where X is Xml.

umm... if you mean the majority, most active/vocal in client side JS,  
no.

>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(programming)?
>
> Here is a simple comparison:
>
> http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2005/12/the_ajax_respon.html
>
> I would be surprised if in the XML users XSLT has more than 5% with  
> DOM
> having the rest.

I think I agree with you here.


> Of course, data here would help...

Seems like a perfect academic project.

>
>
> However, I think that since XML may have a high percentage in the  
> JSON/XML
> split,

XML cannot go across domains. well there are ways around it by using  
JSON/JS:

{
xml: "<foo/>"
}

> and since XSLT is the most significant "XML processing language" I

I agree and disagree. I agree it is the best, but...

>
> know of, then XSLT is a reasonable approach and we should make sure  
> it works
> on the client in and out of the javascript environment.

It does.

>
>
> On the comment of whether XSLT is "despised" by these client/server
> developers - I would neutralize the language a bit,

I don't know about that. However, I think they are misinformed at  
best. But the feeling is out there.

> but I agree that many
> developers using imperative languages do not choose to use XSLT for  
> a number
> of reasons - but to discuss properly deserves another thread.

Here are a few. (they probably don't put me in the best light, but  
long time listeners may be accustomed to that :) )

Most recently, from the server side javascript group where I start  
arguing for XML (and eventually XSL) around the 12th post:

http://groups.google.com/group/serverjs/browse_thread/thread/de0462f15bb86ade?pli=1

 From the Apache Velocity list (older), a discussion about XSL versus  
Freemarker's transformation capabilities. I don't say transformation  
syntax because you have to write java 'drivers' for the  
transformations. I come in here, starting to argue for XSL:

http://markmail.org/search/?q=xsl%20freemarker%20velocity%20guardian#query 
:xsl%20freemarker%20velocity%20guardian+page:1+mid:lcita7ccem7tbdj6+state:results

BTW, I wrote a dojo js constructor object (accepted in the codebase)  
to help make XSL easy in a version before they released. No one used  
it. Not in their version 1.0+ :( But, jquery meets most of my needs  
nowadays.

I have followed several client side JS library lists, but after a  
while unsubscribe because of the volume. Anyways, just do a search --  
if a question is asked about XSL, you hear crickets or ...

truly wishing it weren't so (and would love to be proved wrong),
-Rob


>
>
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Koberg [mailto:rob@koberg.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 12:40 PM
> To: Dan Vint
> Cc: Michael Kay; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] XML support in browsers?
>
>
> On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Dan Vint wrote:
>
>> Thanks I don't really need to serve the content this way and I don't
>> have control of the server side. My audience is wide so I need to
>> consider if I want to cut some one off. By serving the content
>> dynamically I can save some trouble the next time I update the
>> presentation, but its not a show stopper if I have to do it this way.
>>
>> Do people agree with Peter Hunsberger in that:
>>
>> "I think the industry has somewhat decided to ignore client side
>> XSLT and moved on. "
>
> Unfortunately, I would agree that XSL is ignored (despised?). I
> wouldn't say they moved on because they were never there. JSON has a
> better story in that you can cross domains easily and can be used with
> simple JS programming.
>
>
>>
>>
>> Wouldn't web search and other functionality be better if we didn't
>> have presentation based content as the main source on the web?
>
> I am not sure what you mean here, but google is built to understand
> HTML in the wild.
>
> -Rob
>
>>
>>
>> ..dan
>>
>> At 02:12 PM 6/5/2009, Michael Kay wrote:
>>> I should imagine the vast majority of people with a computer that
>>> has been
>>> purchased or updated in the last five years will have no difficulty
>>> displaying web pages that rely on client-side XSLT 1.0 support in  
>>> the
>>> browser.
>>>
>>> If your target audience includes mobile devices, or people with
>>> ancient
>>> computers (e.g. the elderly at home, third-world countries, or
>>> underfunded
>>> schools or charities) then you might still have a few problems.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Michael Kay
>>> http://www.saxonica.com/
>>> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Dan Vint [mailto:dvint@dvint.com]
>>>> Sent: 05 June 2009 18:55
>>>> To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
>>>> Subject: [xml-dev] XML support in browsers?
>>>>
>>>> What is the state of using XML (not xhtml) and xslt
>>>> stylesheets to serve up documents on the client side with a
>>>> browser? I'm refactoring a website of mine to manage the
>>>> content in XML.
>>>>
>>>> I'll be building some XSLT to produce XHTML from this
>>>> content, I was just wondering if it is safe to serve the XML
>>>> directly or should I just generate static XHTML and place
>>>> that on the server?
>>>>
>>>> I'm suspecting that the older browsers are still out there
>>>> and that my answer is going to be use the static HTML.
>>>> Assuming that, any speculation on when we might be able to do
>>>> this? Is there interest in the industry to do this?
>>>>
>>>> ..dan
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -------------
>>>> Danny Vint
>>>>
>>>> Panoramic Photography
>>>> http://www.dvint.com
>>>>
>>>> voice: 502-749-6179
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Danny Vint
>>
>> Panoramic Photography
>> http://www.dvint.com
>>
>> voice: 502-749-6179
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>
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