RE: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore the basic principle

["Len Bullard" <Len.Bullard@ses-i.com>]

If you can find a copy of deRose and Durand's book on Hytime, that's a
good start.  

Be ready to answer questions that seem quite easy on the surface and
then turn out to be nasty when specified.  What is the difference
between a simple link, a multi-link, and a simple link to an entity
containing a lot of simple links (eg, a catalog)?  Will what you propose
scale (there is a reason XML separated DTDs from the instance and SGML
didn't).

My advice is don't propose anything you can't or haven't implemented
first.  HyTime went into the weeds because thoroughness in specification
kept opening more and more rabbit holes that very few of us knew how to
traverse.  Groves are elegant but obtuse.  The DOM works but so do
transforms.  XSL-FOs could be implemented but CSS is a helluva lot
easier to teach and build.

alice

-----Original Message-----
From: David Lee [mailto:dlee@calldei.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 10:44 AM
To: Rushforth, Peter; liam@w3.org; John Cowan
Cc: David Carlisle; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore the basic
principles of MicroXML"

I still find this a tantalizing discussion.
My question is this:
Suppose we identify a really useful set of attributes for "doing X" and
want to include it in the xml namespace.  ( note: for MicroXML thats the
ONLY namespace ???) ...
And suppose we really believe this is useful stuff.

Question: How sure are we that we have it right ?  Once things get baked
in they are pretty baked.   I believe a lot of XMLish things failed
because the were not quite baked before being pulled out of the oven.
Even today I am not quite convinced of the validity of a URL vs a URI.
That is, what *is* the guarantee that a URL actually can be indirected
to a resource, and that resource  is what we think it is ?
Of course that hasn't stopped HTML href's ... they sometimes work ok :)

So if we propose adding something useful to a new standard ... how sure
are we its the right thing ?  I can accept that its "optional" but if
it's not well defined and not quite right then that is worse than
nothing not better.   I am not convinced, even looking over the
shoulders of giants, that the link problem has been solved properly.



----------------------------------------
David A. Lee
dlee@calldei.com
http://www.xmlsh.org

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rushforth, Peter [mailto:Peter.Rushforth@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 11:00 AM
> To: liam@w3.org; John Cowan
> Cc: David Carlisle; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> Subject: RE: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore the
basic
> principles of MicroXML"
> 
> From the abstract:
> 
> "It is a goal to use the power of XML to create a structure that can
describe the
> simple unidirectional hyperlinks of today's HTML as well as more
sophisticated
> multi-ended, typed, self-describing links."
> 
> This seems to have two contradictory goals, really.  Simplicity, yet
complexity.
> 
> I don't know, but what might The Rule of Least Power [1] say about the
issue?
> I would think it would be something like enabling XML with the most
power by
> limiting the complexity of the approach, rather than using the full
power of
> XML to "solve" the problem.
> 
> Peter
> 
> [1] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower.html
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Liam R E Quin [mailto:liam@w3.org]
> > Sent: July 3, 2012 02:04
> > To: John Cowan
> > Cc: David Carlisle; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> > Subject: Re: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore
> > the basic principles of MicroXML"
> >
> > On Tue, 2012-07-03 at 01:18 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> > > Liam R E Quin scripsit:
> > >
> > > > The right thing would have been to have taken the architectural
> > > > forms idea from HyTime and XMLified it, solving the additional
> > > > problem of "link discovery". That's with 20-20 hindsight.
> > >
> > > The original version of XLink *was* AF-based.  See
> > > http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xml-link-970731 .
> >
> > Yes, kinda (not using PIs) but in a very SGML/DTD way, not
> > surprisingly given when the work was being done (I was
> > actually on the WG for a while). Thanks for the reminder, I
> > had indeed forgotten that stage.
> >
> > Liam
> >
> >
> > --
> > Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C,
> > http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books:
> > http://fromoldbooks.org/
> > Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml
> >
> >
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