RE: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore the basicprinciples

["Rushforth, Peter" <Peter.Rushforth@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca>]

HTML has had links implemented for more than a couple of decades, we should
respect that experience.

Peter 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Len Bullard [mailto:Len.Bullard@ses-i.com] 
> Sent: July 3, 2012 12:11
> To: Rushforth, Peter
> Cc: David Carlisle; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> Subject: RE: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore 
> the basic principles of MicroXML"
> 
> If you can find a copy of deRose and Durand's book on Hytime, 
> that's a good start.  
> 
> Be ready to answer questions that seem quite easy on the 
> surface and then turn out to be nasty when specified.  What 
> is the difference between a simple link, a multi-link, and a 
> simple link to an entity containing a lot of simple links 
> (eg, a catalog)?  Will what you propose scale (there is a 
> reason XML separated DTDs from the instance and SGML didn't).
> 
> My advice is don't propose anything you can't or haven't 
> implemented first.  HyTime went into the weeds because 
> thoroughness in specification kept opening more and more 
> rabbit holes that very few of us knew how to traverse.  
> Groves are elegant but obtuse.  The DOM works but so do 
> transforms.  XSL-FOs could be implemented but CSS is a 
> helluva lot easier to teach and build.
> 
> alice
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Lee [mailto:dlee@calldei.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 10:44 AM
> To: Rushforth, Peter; liam@w3.org; John Cowan
> Cc: David Carlisle; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> Subject: RE: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore 
> the basic principles of MicroXML"
> 
> I still find this a tantalizing discussion.
> My question is this:
> Suppose we identify a really useful set of attributes for 
> "doing X" and want to include it in the xml namespace.  ( 
> note: for MicroXML thats the ONLY namespace ???) ...
> And suppose we really believe this is useful stuff.
> 
> Question: How sure are we that we have it right ?  Once 
> things get baked
> in they are pretty baked.   I believe a lot of XMLish things failed
> because the were not quite baked before being pulled out of the oven.
> Even today I am not quite convinced of the validity of a URL vs a URI.
> That is, what *is* the guarantee that a URL actually can be 
> indirected to a resource, and that resource  is what we think it is ?
> Of course that hasn't stopped HTML href's ... they sometimes 
> work ok :)
> 
> So if we propose adding something useful to a new standard 
> ... how sure are we its the right thing ?  I can accept that 
> its "optional" but if it's not well defined and not quite 
> right then that is worse than
> nothing not better.   I am not convinced, even looking over the
> shoulders of giants, that the link problem has been solved properly.
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> David A. Lee
> dlee@calldei.com
> http://www.xmlsh.org
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rushforth, Peter [mailto:Peter.Rushforth@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 11:00 AM
> > To: liam@w3.org; John Cowan
> > Cc: David Carlisle; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> > Subject: RE: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore the
> basic
> > principles of MicroXML"
> > 
> > From the abstract:
> > 
> > "It is a goal to use the power of XML to create a structure that can
> describe the
> > simple unidirectional hyperlinks of today's HTML as well as more
> sophisticated
> > multi-ended, typed, self-describing links."
> > 
> > This seems to have two contradictory goals, really.  Simplicity, yet
> complexity.
> > 
> > I don't know, but what might The Rule of Least Power [1] 
> say about the
> issue?
> > I would think it would be something like enabling XML with the most
> power by
> > limiting the complexity of the approach, rather than using the full
> power of
> > XML to "solve" the problem.
> > 
> > Peter
> > 
> > [1] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower.html
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Liam R E Quin [mailto:liam@w3.org]
> > > Sent: July 3, 2012 02:04
> > > To: John Cowan
> > > Cc: David Carlisle; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> > > Subject: Re: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore the 
> > > basic principles of MicroXML"
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2012-07-03 at 01:18 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> > > > Liam R E Quin scripsit:
> > > >
> > > > > The right thing would have been to have taken the 
> architectural 
> > > > > forms idea from HyTime and XMLified it, solving the 
> additional 
> > > > > problem of "link discovery". That's with 20-20 hindsight.
> > > >
> > > > The original version of XLink *was* AF-based.  See
> > > > http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xml-link-970731 .
> > >
> > > Yes, kinda (not using PIs) but in a very SGML/DTD way, not 
> > > surprisingly given when the work was being done (I was 
> actually on 
> > > the WG for a while). Thanks for the reminder, I had 
> indeed forgotten 
> > > that stage.
> > >
> > > Liam
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C,
> > > http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books:
> > > http://fromoldbooks.org/
> > > Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml
> > >
> > >
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