RE: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore the basic principle

["Len Bullard" <Len.Bullard@ses-i.com>]

What kind of links are in HTML?

Earlier I gave you examples of a different vocabulary with links to
stimulate this thought.  It's important to understand how links are
implemented in different systems because XML is used Off The Web and On
The Web and you need to know if that is important.  OTW, what you
propose is a non-starter.

It isn't disrespect for HTML.  Do remember that lots of systems
implement href like links before HTML.  The experience is consequential
and deep.  See Dexter.

len

-----Original Message-----
From: Rushforth, Peter [mailto:Peter.Rushforth@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 11:28 AM
To: Len Bullard
Cc: David Carlisle; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore the basic
principles of MicroXML"

HTML has had links implemented for more than a couple of decades, we
should
respect that experience.

Peter 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Len Bullard [mailto:Len.Bullard@ses-i.com] 
> Sent: July 3, 2012 12:11
> To: Rushforth, Peter
> Cc: David Carlisle; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> Subject: RE: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore 
> the basic principles of MicroXML"
> 
> If you can find a copy of deRose and Durand's book on Hytime, 
> that's a good start.  
> 
> Be ready to answer questions that seem quite easy on the 
> surface and then turn out to be nasty when specified.  What 
> is the difference between a simple link, a multi-link, and a 
> simple link to an entity containing a lot of simple links 
> (eg, a catalog)?  Will what you propose scale (there is a 
> reason XML separated DTDs from the instance and SGML didn't).
> 
> My advice is don't propose anything you can't or haven't 
> implemented first.  HyTime went into the weeds because 
> thoroughness in specification kept opening more and more 
> rabbit holes that very few of us knew how to traverse.  
> Groves are elegant but obtuse.  The DOM works but so do 
> transforms.  XSL-FOs could be implemented but CSS is a 
> helluva lot easier to teach and build.
> 
> alice
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Lee [mailto:dlee@calldei.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 10:44 AM
> To: Rushforth, Peter; liam@w3.org; John Cowan
> Cc: David Carlisle; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> Subject: RE: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore 
> the basic principles of MicroXML"
> 
> I still find this a tantalizing discussion.
> My question is this:
> Suppose we identify a really useful set of attributes for 
> "doing X" and want to include it in the xml namespace.  ( 
> note: for MicroXML thats the ONLY namespace ???) ...
> And suppose we really believe this is useful stuff.
> 
> Question: How sure are we that we have it right ?  Once 
> things get baked
> in they are pretty baked.   I believe a lot of XMLish things failed
> because the were not quite baked before being pulled out of the oven.
> Even today I am not quite convinced of the validity of a URL vs a URI.
> That is, what *is* the guarantee that a URL actually can be 
> indirected to a resource, and that resource  is what we think it is ?
> Of course that hasn't stopped HTML href's ... they sometimes 
> work ok :)
> 
> So if we propose adding something useful to a new standard 
> ... how sure are we its the right thing ?  I can accept that 
> its "optional" but if it's not well defined and not quite 
> right then that is worse than
> nothing not better.   I am not convinced, even looking over the
> shoulders of giants, that the link problem has been solved properly.
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> David A. Lee
> dlee@calldei.com
> http://www.xmlsh.org
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rushforth, Peter [mailto:Peter.Rushforth@NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 11:00 AM
> > To: liam@w3.org; John Cowan
> > Cc: David Carlisle; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> > Subject: RE: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore the
> basic
> > principles of MicroXML"
> > 
> > From the abstract:
> > 
> > "It is a goal to use the power of XML to create a structure that can
> describe the
> > simple unidirectional hyperlinks of today's HTML as well as more
> sophisticated
> > multi-ended, typed, self-describing links."
> > 
> > This seems to have two contradictory goals, really.  Simplicity, yet
> complexity.
> > 
> > I don't know, but what might The Rule of Least Power [1] 
> say about the
> issue?
> > I would think it would be something like enabling XML with the most
> power by
> > limiting the complexity of the approach, rather than using the full
> power of
> > XML to "solve" the problem.
> > 
> > Peter
> > 
> > [1] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower.html
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Liam R E Quin [mailto:liam@w3.org]
> > > Sent: July 3, 2012 02:04
> > > To: John Cowan
> > > Cc: David Carlisle; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> > > Subject: Re: [xml-dev] "Introducing MicroXML, Part 1: Explore the 
> > > basic principles of MicroXML"
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2012-07-03 at 01:18 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> > > > Liam R E Quin scripsit:
> > > >
> > > > > The right thing would have been to have taken the 
> architectural 
> > > > > forms idea from HyTime and XMLified it, solving the 
> additional 
> > > > > problem of "link discovery". That's with 20-20 hindsight.
> > > >
> > > > The original version of XLink *was* AF-based.  See
> > > > http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xml-link-970731 .
> > >
> > > Yes, kinda (not using PIs) but in a very SGML/DTD way, not 
> > > surprisingly given when the work was being done (I was 
> actually on 
> > > the WG for a while). Thanks for the reminder, I had 
> indeed forgotten 
> > > that stage.
> > >
> > > Liam
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C,
> > > http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books:
> > > http://fromoldbooks.org/
> > > Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml
> > >
> > >
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