RE: [xml-dev] XML's greatest cultural advantage over JSON

[David Lee <dlee@calldei.com>]

--------------->  Simon St. Laurent ----->

XML had a chance with an open-minded crowd of people eager to embrace 
it.  By and large, we utterly failed to convince them.  Once other 
options emerged, they ran there.

Why do you think the next generation would march the opposite direction 
when the XML story hasn't changed?

If you want to draw folks back to XML, the story around XML has to change.
---------

My opinion and experience differs from yours vastly.

In MY experience/opinion the major power driving people from XML to JSON is the browers and JavaScript.  And the advent of web 
services which have very simple payloads and data models.
JSON maps perfectly to JavaScript objects and works great for simple point to point data exchange of simple data (as long as you avoid
thigns like well dates and big numbers - even then you just break JSON and call it JSON like Google does).
Browsers have intentionally handicapped XML in so many ways I gave up counting 
(just a few but the poor support for parsing/query even though it is screaming fast the API appears complex and noone likes to see browser specific if statements ... although they have no problem doing that with other weirdnesses of HTML , and especially the inherent trust model
that browsers bless JSON as "safe" and "XML" as "not safe" even though it will blindly execute javascript from a cross domain and call that fine. 

Both of those are technically simple to fix but politically and culturaly not so. 
But hey, from a web developers point of view the fact that your server can wrap JSON with a java script function (JSONP)
serve it up as "data" and the browser executes it and calls into your code is just, well, cool.  Who can argue with that !
So sure, web developers love JSON.   No complaint on that front.


I am not trying to lead a march (as I belive you are but ... thats just my guess).
But I really don't see any significant problem with XML itself.   I do agree its "story" has become muddied over the years
with a plephra of layers of optional and semi-optional and somewhat related specs.  That happens to any mature technology.
( Just try to find a simple document on how to use Oracle for example) and yes Thats a hindrance to mass adoption.
And I agree people see this huge thing and gasp and think "I need to learn all THAT !!!???  All I want is to send a string".
But the biggest hindrance is the bias built into the browsers and the web developers are numerous so statistically you end 
with JSON being very popular, and then once you learn it , it seems the best way to do your next program, like say put it in a database.
But hmmm you really want something a bit more complex for your database like real numbers and dates and such so BSON was invented to feed Mongo ... which isnt JSON but the API "looks like JSON" so shhh look the other way ... and it still cant handle complex documents
(like say PDF or Word or HL7 or even HTML in a structured way but you can just put those in strings so no problem ... just dont
try to query them or reformat them).
And so it goes ... JSON is poplar , everyone is happy.  The XML people are old farts with old ideas and should just be put to rest.
And all is well and good with the world.   If you buy into all that.  And it does work well ... to a point.



I am not trying to lead a revolution and lead people to "The True Way".
What I am trying to do in my small way, in bits and pieces, is to dispel myth and enlighten misconceptions one tiny grain at a time.
or atleast opine.    But I have no illusions of grandeur that I am a leader of an army.   That would be truely arrogant and foolish.

However ... Looking towards the future the playing field is changing underneath *everyone*.  like it or not.  
More and more data that people and companies want to manipulate is becoming more complex.
More "document like" than ever before.   I do see that as the niche where XML was king (and still is King ) aka in document modeling,
is starting to grow.  Grow not like a slow oak but like weeds overtaking the world.   And business and government is starting to want to 
get a grip on it .... and its damn hard.
Just like Relational Databases are starting to outlive their usefulness, so are simple data models.
So perhaps eventually the hordeas and masses will reach a point when they discover the simple models simply dont work well
enough for them and they will need more complex models to handle the data they are being forced to handle.
They might bring them back to XML ... Or it might bring something new and grand.  Or it might be JSON becoming as complicated as XML.
who knows.   But I don't see the JSON of today handling the majority of data of tomorrow.  Or even today.
Or we will see a bifurcation much like we have today where some models are used for some things and some for others.
There doesnt need to be One True Way.    Religions don't need to be dismantled,  people will learn to live with their religion or
realize it doesnt work for them anymore.   But if people are going to choose a religion, I would like to do my microscopic part at
attempting to put some objective light on the subject.   As objective as I can be from MY island.


My view from my island.  Where I see the world differently then you.

-David