Re: [xml-dev] Re: Native XML Interfaces

[cbullard@hiwaay.net]

Hi Kurt

It's the basics I am considering here, not the more advanced  
applications of XML as programming system datasets.  IOW, the original  
dog-eared apps:  books.
Taking a pre-tagged manual or a template (tagging) isn't that hard.  A  
data designer should be able to start from a blank sheet and by  
sprinkling, interviews and some experiments rig a decent type  
definition, templates for other to use and a style sheet of some kind  
(here things get harder but not that much harder).  I am surprised by  
those who can't do those basic tasks but insist they are "XML experts".

My problem with not being able to get Below The Tools is the tools can  
rat-jinx one fast and unnoticeably.  Even ArborText The Venerable  
still has some nasty well-formedness bugs in it's XML handling.  And  
we aren't to validity yet.  How many orgs have you worked for who  
don't know a well-formed parse and a validation pass aren't the same  
thing?  How many know how to set up AE with it's myriad configuration  
options?

This isn't about allegiance to a particular programming language.   
This is a failure of education in the field.  As a result, in  
organizations I've talked to there are serious authorities who want to  
get away from XML/SGML altogether and turn the TM production over to  
Word and PDF.  Considering that all they are delivering is what we  
once called Class 2 ETMs (Jorgensen Lives!), it's hard to talk them  
out of it.

Aside.  You'll love this note at the top of a TM I'm reading:

<blockquote>THIS TECHNICAL MANUAL (TM) HAS BEEN DEVELOPED FROM AN INTELLIGENT
ELECTRONIC SOURCE KNOWN AS STANDARD GENERALIZED MARKUP LANGUAGE
(SGML). THERE IS NO LOEP. ALL CHANGES, IF APPLICABLE, ARE INCLUDED. THE
PAGINATION IN THIS TM WILL NOT MATCH THE PAGINATION OF THE ORIGINAL PAPER
TM; HOWEVER, THE CONTENT IS EXACTLY THE SAME. ANY CHANGES RECEIVED AFTER
RECEIPT OF THIS TM WILL ONLY FIT IN THIS PAGINATED VERSION.</blockquote>

Wow.

len


Quoting Kurt Cagle <kurt.cagle@gmail.com>:

> Hey, Len,
>
> I run into this a great deal with Java developers who consume XML that then
> gets converted to JAXB or some other code serialization. Most have at most
> a very rudimentary understanding of XML, usually enough to write
> well-formed XML but not to the point of understanding more than the very
> basics of XML design, usually have no understanding of XPath or XSLT, and
> at best VERY rudimentary XSD skills (mostly those features of XSD most
> likely to break their JAXB serializations).
>
> I'm not sure more XML education works here though. Most times its a
> language prejudice - they don't want to learn XML because it's not Java, or
> JavaScript or Ruby, and because it can't easily be broken into "dot"
> notations. Of course, I also think that the W3C missed a golden opportunity
> to create an e4x-like standard - an analog to XPath that would have fit
> more sympathetically into the C++/Java/JS formalisms.
>
> Kurt
>
> Kurt
>
> Kurt Cagle
> Invited Expert, XForms Working Group, W3C
> Managing Editor, XMLToday.org
> kurt.cagle@gmail.com
> 443-837-8725
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 10:20 AM, <cbullard@hiwaay.net> wrote:
>
>> Maybe everyone shouldn't be able to deal with the "raw" XML and without a
>> decent data dictionary, shouldn't.   But time and time again the ability to
>> read a type definition and scree the XML saved my bacon.
>>
>> I gave my current firm's (consultants for rent r us) representative a list
>> of questions to ask people who are offering themselves up as gurus for
>> hire.  She requested it.  The problem was taggers trying to offer
>> themselves as data analysts and getting thrown back like bad fish a few
>> weeks later or not making it through the interview.  XML education is a
>> serious and I believe growing problem in the industry.
>>
>> There are many XML application/vocabularies and I don't expect everyone to
>> know all of them.  There is a big body of XML supporting software and
>> programming or querying/database skills are required and I don't expect
>> everyone to know all of them.
>>
>> But if they can't read native XML at all, throw them back on the dock.
>>  Basics matter.
>>
>> len
>>
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