RE: [xml-dev] Re: Native XML Interfaces

[David Lee <dlee@calldei.com>]

This is quite interesting.
Not pointing fingers just Pontificating from a glass house:)

W3C doesn't want to be in the API world (dont blame them,  #fail #DOM #fail)
XML is NOT designed to be a good language fit, its designed to be a good markup fit #success #markup-authors #fail #programmers.
BUT as a side effect its actually fairly painful in "normal" languages.
So instead of inventing API's W3C (and friends of course, me included) create DSL's
XSLT, XPath, XQuery, XProc , xmlsh (my shameless plug)

So instead of creating API's  W3C and others create DSL's which actually work well with the XDM ... but keep their
hands free of the blood of APIs.


In the meantime JSON takes off because its definitely NOT a markup language (out of the mouth of the author, yes),
but IS designed to bind to existing languages/APIs.

Now this isn't "bad" ... the two often have different audiences and use cases.  And really ... are we in a markup war ?
More tools are good right ?

Well to a point.  More markups/tools etc. do drain off the intellectual work (in a physics and social sense) 
from people who might otherwise invest in another markup/tool.  
The denigrate case is what XML was trying to solve ... too many formats. #solved #XML
Of course XML only solved that at one layer and punted the rest up a layer but still good right ?
( No longer writing in assembly we write in C ... wait, C++ , wait, Java , wait Ruby , wait, Perl , wait ... Xxx)
No longer write in binary proprietary formats now we write in XML with special schemas (Office, ODF, PDF .... ) 
But at least you can read the <> ... ha ha.

It is quite a tangled web we weave trying to solve problems while creating more.
Not unlike the tension between political ideology.    Libertarianism vs Socialism. (or insert <favorite opposing ideology>).

Still ... there is an ongoing tension between standardization and creativity.
Is it an inevitably unsolvable problem ?
Should we strive for a solution or embrace chaos or both ?




----------------------------------------
David A. Lee
dlee@calldei.com
http://www.xmlsh.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Liam R E Quin [mailto:liam@w3.org] 
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 8:22 PM
To: Kurt Cagle
Cc: Len Bullard; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Re: Native XML Interfaces

On Fri, 2013-05-31 at 11:21 -0700, Kurt Cagle wrote:
[...]
> I'm not sure more XML education works here though. Most times its a
> language prejudice - they don't want to learn XML because it's not Java, or
> JavaScript or Ruby, and because it can't easily be broken into "dot"
> notations.

XML is all about owning your own data - you own it as author. The
application doesn't own it and neither does the programmer.

As a result XML is not a close fit to any programming language, and
"hard-core" programmers tend not to like it.


>  Of course, I also think that the W3C missed a golden opportunity
> to create an e4x-like standard - an analog to XPath that would have fit
> more sympathetically into the C++/Java/JS formalisms.

Actually I agree; when we had the chance there was a "W3C doesn't do
APIs" mantra. I don't know its source.

I'd also love to see golang-style concurrency in XQuery.

Liam

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml


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