Re: [xml-dev] XQuery 2019 IMap

[Dimitre Novatchev <dnovatchev@gmail.com>]

> On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 2:23 PM Liam R. E. Quin <liam@fromoldbooks.org> wrote:

> Possible ways forward include a W3C community group, if you want to be
> able to reawaken the XQuery Working Group (and presumably the XSLT
> Working Group); an external-to-W3C organization (Oasis? or something
> ad-hoc?).

Reflecting on the work on XSLT, the XSLT 3.0 Specification stopped
short "in the middle of the road" and there are a number of unfinished
or new language features that would follow naturally, hadn't the WG
been abruptly dissolved. Just to name a few:
 -  Streaming is implemented only on input documents but not on
output/intermediate ones
 -  Tuples
 -  Type aliases
 -  Concurrency

Even if Saxon could provide some of these as future extensions, this
would reflect a single-minded point of view -- far from a rounded and
thoughtful result of the clashes of minds emerging from different
perspectives.

We need a continued standardization effort -- be it in W3C or within
another body -- in order to bring the work to its logical, complete
and beautiful ending.

The current situation reminds us that any tool, such as Divide and
Conquer, can be used not only for reaching positive outcomes.

Cheers,
Dimitre


On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 2:23 PM Liam R. E. Quin <liam@fromoldbooks.org> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2019-01-05 at 10:23 +0000, Hans-Juergen Rennau wrote:
> > Hello, hello, has anybody the postal address of Sir Tim Berners-Lee?
> > I want to write him a letter, expressing my disappointment. I shall
> > not mince words, trusting that truly great minds are not touchy. I
> > want to ask - how can the closing of the XQuery Working Group be
> > explained, if not by a headstrong refusal to think deeply?
>
> It can be explained because the Working Group was down to very few
> active participants. The W3C work is funded by Members joining W3C and
> sending people to the Working Groups. So if Members don't go, the work
> ends. The decision to close the Working Group wasn't Tim's, as it
> happens.
>
> > "XQuery" is a double lie - it is not about
> > XML, and it is not a query language. It is about mapping information.
>
> Although i agree with you about mapping information, the word lie is
> perhaps a little loaded.
>
> At one point i tried to push for a different name; perhaps unexcitingly
> i think i suggested fast forest, and for people to talk about forest
> stores rather than XML databases. But there was considerable push-back
> from the Working Group.
>
> [...]
>
> > True, the generalization from XML to Information is still rudimentary
>
> In general i think of XML as being an information representation
> syntax; as RDF as being a knowledge representation model (in the sense
> of 1970s and 1980s expert systems); of JSON as being an intechange
> syntax for data and (less happily) configurations. But these are only
> approximate, not clear boundaries.
>
> An advantage of a syntax-based representation is that there's no single
> fixed way to parse XML: you can build any number of data structures.
> It's perfectly acceptable to read an SVG image and construct a colour
> pallette, not the actual image.
>
> > - we need standardized parsing of non-XML resources into XDM node
> > trees.
>
> Do we? Well, we have some ways to get from JSON to XDM in the XPath 3.1
> Functions and Operators book.
>
> > True, the sister paradigm of information structure, graph, is still
> > not supported natively - it should be integrated into the XDM (adding
> > RDF triples and RDF datasets) as well as the expression language
> > (adding SPARQL expressions).
>
> Once you go here i think you have indeed left behind the X.
>
> > But these shortcomings just point to the need of an XQuery Working
> > Group - for a continuation of the journey from XQuery to IMap..
>
> (IMAP itself as a name is already in use for email, of course; i'm not
> sure whether that matters)
>
> Possible ways forward include a W3C community group, if you want to be
> able to reawaken the XQuery Working Group (and presumably the XSLT
> Working Group); an external-to-W3C organization (Oasis? or something
> ad-hoc?).
>
> But i think really what you have to show is not only excitement about
> technical possibilities but how your proposal would answer business
> objectives:
> * do something you couldn't do before;
> * do something you are already doing, but more cheaply
> * do something you are already doing, but faster
> * do something you are already doing, but more reliably
> and so on. This is the kind of story that attracts funding and
> interest.
>
> Liam
>
>
> --
> Liam Quin - http://delightfulcomputing.com/
> web slave for https://www.fromoldbooks.org/
> with fabulous vintage art and fascinating texts to read.
>
>
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-- 
Cheers,
Dimitre Novatchev
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