Re: [xml-dev] Is XML a language or a data format?

[Shlomi Fish <shlomif@shlomifish.org>]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 08:33:01 +0100
Stephen D Green <stephengreenubl@gmail.com> wrote:

> Perhaps, guardians of XML are guardians of civilisation.
> 
> As nuclear war peril looms, maybe we should print data and knowledge

offtopic, but I'm not worried:

*
https://github.com/shlomif/shlomif-tech-diary/blob/master/hydrogen-bombs-are-likely-an-old-intelligence-hoax.asciidoc

*
https://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/culture/multiverse-cosmology/#history-lesson-about-the-muppeteers

> considered essential to future generations of civilisation, such as
> calendars and basic maths, onto sheets of plastic, perhaps by stencil holes
> rather than perishable ink, and do so worldwide now in case of nuclear war.
> Making use of the persistent nature of plastic. Before the world loses the
> ability to read binary, make and use electricity and fossil fuels, etc.
> 
> On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 at 08:02, Stephen D Green <stephengreenubl@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Incidentally a plausible corollary of this is that civilisation might
> > collapse if both data and prose formats evolve into something which cannot
> > be persisted between generations.
> >
> > On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 at 07:22, Stephen D Green <stephengreenubl@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >  
> >> I am sure there are ample books devoted to good coverage of this. I
> >> think of Document Engineering by R Glushko and T McGrath as one which
> >> has this covered in a relevant XML-related context.
> >> Data is compressed prose.
> >> I could think of an example of a small UK charity publishing a record
> >> of its Annual General Meeting in which it first publishes minutes of
> >> the meeting, followed by a table of its annual accounts summary, which
> >> can be seen as tabulated data. This data could instead have been
> >> written as prose "In the first month of the year, January, we spent
> >> £200 on office stationery. In the second month ..." but that would be
> >> tedious to write and tedious to read. The table format circumvents the
> >> tedium.
> >>
> >> The tabulation of data historically preceded prose in Sumerian times
> >> around 3500 BC in Uruk where accounts of donations to the temple were
> >> recorded with symbols impressed into stone or clay tablets in a table
> >> format, and understood by convention. Only around 3000 did prose
> >> sentence construction appear to us in the archaeological record of Tel
> >> Fara and surrounding towns around 2800 BC, the Fara Period, at which
> >> point poetry as well as prose started to be written with symbols on
> >> clay and stone tablets. (Examples: Instruction of Sharappak, and the
> >> Temple Hymn of Kesh.) So historically the tabulated data idea is very
> >> ancient and very well understood and underpins civilisation through
> >> all of history in many parts of the world. It allows the recording of
> >> financial accounts, for example, and documentation of individual
> >> payments. Yet prose is an alternative which is almost as ancient and
> >> allows expression of ideas and recording of human sentences, such as
> >> the minutes of a meeting. The two have coexisted side-by-side
> >> throughout human civilization in most 'advanced' cultures. Arguably
> >> the existence of these two forms of writing has brought about
> >> civilisation by allowing the persistence of knowledge between
> >> generations.
> >>
> >> That is my take
> >> Regards
> >> Stephen Green
> >> ----
> >> Stephen D Green
> >>
> >> On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 at 00:59, Roger L Costello <costello@mitre.org>
> >> wrote:  
> >> >
> >> > Hi Folks,
> >> >
> >> > I passed along the two Michael's comments to the colleague who asserted  
> >> that data formats don't have grammars. Below is his response. Do you agree
> >> with his response?  /Roger  
> >> > -----------------------------------------------------
> >> > So I offer....
> >> >
> >> >       "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In  
> >> practice, there is." -Yogi Berra  
> >> >
> >> > First, to clarify, when I said a data format "doesn't have" a grammar,  
> >> I did not mean that literally like in formal computer science (CS) terms.  
> >> >
> >> > I meant it figuratively. The term "grammar" in the CS sense, is just  
> >> not relevant. It lives alongside "spelling" and "algebra" as things one had
> >> to learn once (high school?), but these terms aren't used nor needed with
> >> reference to practical work with data.  
> >> >
> >> > Rather, we data people use terms like structure, struct, record, and  
> >> layout. And of course "format".  
> >> >
> >> > Are these just synonyms for "grammar"? I claim no. They denote things  
> >> that are simpler. E.g., one big difference is no recursion. Are these terms
> >> just "simplified grammars" in the CS sense? Yes. But the words used are my
> >> point here.  
> >> >
> >> > Case in point: There is a military data spec document that is 5000  
> >> pages long and a large fraction of those pages describe the format of each
> >> of its messages.  
> >> > The term "grammar" does not appear anywhere in that 5000 page document.
> >> > It is big, but it's 'just' a data format.
> >> > -----------------------------------------------------
> >> > My colleague went on to say that if you remove XML's recursion  
> >> capability, then it may be used as a data format; otherwise, it is a
> >> language.  
> >> >
> >> >  
> >>  
> > --
> > ----
> > Stephen D Green
> >  



-- 

Shlomi Fish       https://www.shlomifish.org/
The Human Hacking Field Guide - https://shlom.in/hhfg

Artificial Intelligence is not an adequate substitute for natural stupidity.
    — https://www.quotationspage.com/quote/239.html

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