IRC log from today's meeting - 2013-12-18

Please find the IRC log of today's meeting below.  Our next meeting will be next year on the 15th of January.
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2014&month=01&day=15&hour=15&min=30&sec=0&p1=179&p2=37&p3=136&p4=234&iv=1800
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office-collab/event.php?event_id=36613
The teleconference login data for next call will be found in the
OASIS calendar event (URL above).
Attendees: John, Oliver, Friedrich, Jos, Peter, Patrick, Rob,
Svante.
anonymous morphed into Jos van den Oever
Oliver-Rainer Wittmann:  moin moin from Hamburg
Oliver-Rainer Wittmann:  only some days left to get all my xmas gifts
Svante Schubert:  I got a problem with the access code
Svante Schubert:  Rob, can you open the call please?
Svante Schubert:  or Patrick?
Oliver-Rainer Wittmann:  I am hearing music
[16:33]   Svante Schubert:  worked
[16:34]   Rob Weir:  Sorry, missed your note.  I was enjoying the music too much.
[16:34]   Svante Schubert:  Next meeting  https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office-collab/event.php?event_id=36613
[16:34]   Svante Schubert:  15th of Janauraary
[16:35]   anonymous morphed into Friedrich
[16:36]   Svante Schubert:
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-collab/201312/msg00008.html
[16:37]   Svante Schubert:  with an example of XML changes to be serialized
[16:40]   Svante Schubert:
http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#element-style_text-properties
[16:41]   Svante Schubert:  the properties element of type text is similar to the XML element
[16:42]   Svante Schubert:
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office-collab/download.php/51764/latest/OpenDocument-v1.3-wd01-part5-changetracking.odt
[16:45]   Jos van den Oever:  a user action might result in multiple operations
[16:46]   Jos van den Oever:  in these cases it would be nice to group the operations
[16:46]   Svante Schubert:  Oliver: Another example for combining operations: convert text to table or table to text function
[16:48]   Svante Schubert:  Oliver: Search/Replace another example
[16:49]   Svante Schubert:  BTW regarding the example operation naming: The reason in the example document to use add / format / delete elements instead of addParagraph, formatParagraph, etc. was to keep the new element set low for ODF 1.3. Was once a comment of Rob.
[16:50]   Jos van den Oever:  do we have a list of valid values for @type in type= paragraph  ?
[16:50]   Friedrich:  grouped operations (e.g. from user actions) could have a certain semantic. for displaying those groups back in the UI (e.g. in Undo menu) the semantic needs to be localized
[16:51]   Svante Schubert:  Using a new default namespace: <undo xmlns= docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.3/os/part5/relaxng#changes >
[16:51]   Svante Schubert:  Using a new default namespace: <undo xmlns= docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.3/os/part5/relaxng#changes >
[16:51]   Friedrich:  *the name of the semantic
[16:51]   Svante Schubert:  @Jos: The valid list is the list of components
[16:53]   Svante Schubert:  6. Bundles of Metadata Metadata can be added in sets. Styles are a prominent example.
[16:53]   Svante Schubert:  They do not count as a component (moving others in position)
[16:54]   Oliver-Rainer Wittmann:  I think Jos intention is to simplify parsing
[16:55]   Svante Schubert:  Dependent on the value of the @type attribute, there are different co-attributes
[16:58]   Jos van den Oever:  it's confusing that an <add/> may or may not be localized
[16:58]   Svante Schubert:  localized like in relation to position not I8N
[16:58]   Svante Schubert:  right?
[16:59]   Jos van den Oever:  no, i mean have a location in the document
[16:59]   Svante Schubert:  okay
[16:59]   Jos van den Oever:  maybe it makes sense to have e.g. <set/> and <unset/> for global properties
[16:59]   Jos van den Oever:  such as style definitions
[17:01]   Jos van den Oever:  and reserve <add/> for things that go into the document flow
[17:01]   Jos van den Oever:  note: there are multiple flows, e.g. the flow in frames is different from the main one
[17:02]   Svante Schubert:  Rob: Making the set of the XML as small as possible, but not smaller..
[17:03]   Svante Schubert:  On the other hand, we might provide an extra element/operation for all ops changing a position
[17:04]   Oliver-Rainer Wittmann:  I think we should follow Jos' proposal to distinguish these kind of operations
[17:04]   Svante Schubert:  The measurement for Fonts are by default in 'pt', all other length units are normalized to 1/100 millimeter
[17:06]   Jos van den Oever:  why not have explicit units all the time?
[17:06]   Jos van den Oever:  why not have explicit units all the time?
[17:06]   Svante Schubert:  Because otherwise you have to check for the run-time all the time
[17:06]   Svante Schubert:  You always choose a unit when you serialize to XML
[17:07]   Jos van den Oever:  having only one type of unit per physical quantity does simplify the spec
[17:07]   Jos van den Oever:  are decimal values allowed?
[17:08]   Svante Schubert:  only integer
[17:08]   Jos van den Oever:  decimal != integer
[17:08]   Jos van den Oever:  why integers instead of decimals?
[17:11]   Friedrich:  so no micro-documents possible?
[17:12]   Svante Schubert:  Oliver: Draw document, which is the specification of a processor layout. You use units for your layout, than the 1/100 millimeter is not enough.
[17:13]   Jos van den Oever:  Oliver says that currently OpenOffice can have a drawing of very small dimensions, e.g. 1e-9 (nm) for processor layout
[17:14]   Svante Schubert:  Oliver: Ops would otherwise limit former ODF specs
[17:14]   Jos van den Oever:  the drawing is then scaled to look nice
[17:14]   Jos van den Oever:  the drawing is then scaled to look nice
[17:14]   Svante Schubert:  Something else:
[17:14]   Svante Schubert:  <format type= text  start= /2/12  end= /2/22 > <properties type= text  url=  _blank  href= http://thesaurus.com/browse/good%20example%22/
>http://thesaurus.com/browse/good%20example / > </format>
[17:15]   Svante Schubert:  A different mapping of hyperlinks
[17:15]   Oliver-Rainer Wittmann:  on mute again
[17:17]   Jos van den Oever:  is <b></b> retained?
[17:18]   Jos van den Oever:  and is it a reachable position for a cursor?
[17:18]   Svante Schubert:  Good for rount-trip of spreadsheet cells, where deleting the content in the GUI the hyperlink is saved after save/load roundtrip and editing content again
[17:19]   Svante Schubert:  Remember a paragraph with only an empty span with automatic style is similar to a paragraph with having the span text style as its automatic style!
[17:19]   Svante Schubert:  Remember a paragraph with only an empty span with automatic style is similar to a paragraph with having the span text style as its automatic style!
[17:20]   Svante Schubert:  Friedrich: Seems more an run-time behavior problem than a serialization problem for CT
[17:22]   Svante Schubert:  <add type= style  parent= Heading  displayName= Heading 1  next= Normal > <properties type= text  color= #3b006f  fontSize= 18  fontWeight= bold /> <properties type= paragraph  outlineLevel= 1  marginTop= 847  paddingTop= 212 /> </add>
[17:23]   Svante Schubert:  outlineLevel= 1
[17:24]   Svante Schubert:  The default is 0 there is no ODF limit, in AOO/LO the limit is 10 in MSO 9
[17:24]   Svante Schubert:  The default is 0 there is no ODF limit, in AOO/LO the limit is 10 in MSO 9
[17:26]   Svante Schubert:  Jos: How to distinguish lists and numberParagraphs and Headings.
[17:26]   Svante Schubert:  Lists and numberedParagraph are 100% identical (aside of the ODF XML serialization). BTW IMHO numberedParagraph is boilerplate and should be depreacted.
[17:27]   Friedrich:  19.844.4 <text:h> The text:outline-level attribute specifies the level of a heading, starting with 1. Headings without a level attribute are assumed to be at level 1.
[17:28]   Friedrich:  So not sure if  default is 0  is right?
[17:28]   Svante Schubert:  default is being a paragraph
[17:28]   Svante Schubert:  as soon it is higher 0 the paragraph becomes a heading
[17:30]   Oliver-Rainer Wittmann:  if we treat text  and text:h the same then I think 'outlinelevel=0' is the default
[17:30]   Oliver-Rainer Wittmann:  bye
[17:30]   Svante Schubert:  There is no heading/list component, only paragraphs with outlineLevel/listLevel..
[17:30]   Svante Schubert:  byebye