Re: [xml-dev] [OT] Re: [xml-dev] Lessons learned from the XML experiment

[David Sheets <kosmo.zb@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Uche Ogbuji <uche@ogbuji.net> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 9:04 AM, David Sheets <kosmo.zb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Uche Ogbuji <uche@ogbuji.net> wrote:
>> > On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 8:46 AM, David Sheets <kosmo.zb@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Uche Ogbuji <uche@ogbuji.net> wrote:
>> >> > On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 8:34 AM, David Sheets <kosmo.zb@gmail.com>
>> >> > So why are you using XML again?
>> >>
>> >> This is a general question: are null-terminated strings the right
>> >> representation for transmitting binary blobs?
>> >>
>> >> Why not?
>> >
>> >
>> > Your question nails it in an unintended way. I was clearly talking about
>> > text. You are talking about null-terminated strings and BLOBs. There is
>> > a
>> > very big and important difference.
>>
>> I'm talking about type errors of which both this SOAP example and my
>> example are instances.
>
>
> Exactly.
>
>
>> > And no, I do not believe that text technologies are right for
>> > transmitting
>> > either null-terminated strings or BLOBs. Why not? Because they're not
>> > designed for it. You can start learning how so by trying to put a
>> > null-terminated string into XML.
>>
>> Perhaps using text to transmit the concept of "null" is also
>> ill-advised...
>
>
> Exactly.
>
>
>>
>> >> If I decided to use null-terminated strings to transmit a binary blob,
>> >> would it be a "C WTF"?
>> >
>> >
>> > Of course not, because C is designed for that.
>>
>> And XML is designed for nodes.
>
>
> Absolutely not!

Could you expand on this? Perhaps you could tell us about the data model of XML?

>>
>> The data model designer did not use a
>> <null> element or take the absence of an element to be a null value,
>> instead they chose to overload the meaning of a piece of plain text.
>
>
> Yes, because they are using a system that muddles the layers between text
> and data.
>
>
>>
>> > From the "null terminated strings" bit and this one, I can tell your
>> > viewpoint on this is very programmer-literal, and so we're on very
>> > different
>> > worlds in taking lessons from that situation.
>>
>> I think programmers should design data formats for programs to read
>> and write, yes. I'm not sure what else you feel you can glean of my
>> viewpoint. What else do you think I think?
>
>
> I think you think I wonder what you think.

When you make suppositions regarding my worldview, if they are to be
taken as evidence, you should be clear about what you are assuming.

>>
>> > So the answer is no that's
>> > not what I'm saying, but Ive already said what I'm saying.
>>
>> Sorry, I'm still not understanding. You appear to be saying that this
>> SOAP difficulty is a classic "XML WTF" that is attributable to being
>> too concerned with typing at the expense of text. Could you perhaps
>> lay out a series of inferences that lead you to this conclusion?
>>
>> I'm having a hard time following your train of thought.
>
>
> Exactly.

This did not help. Could you please lay out your argument for why XML
or its data model are behind this particular problem with SOAP?

Thanks,

David Sheets

> --
> Uche Ogbuji                                       http://uche.ogbuji.net
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