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Hi Mike,
Mike said:
What does that have to do with XML as markup? It's exactly what
Cassandra, oops, Simon has been yelling about -- *programmers* can use
proprietary APIs that -- deep down out of sight of anyone -- happen to
use XML as an object serialization technique. Pardon me if I think
the reference to "XML" in the headline was B.S.
Didier replies:
Precisely and two cause may be behind the future success of that:
a) money
b) ease of use
If programmers get a tool that make it easy for them to accomplish their
task and if they are rewarded to play in the dominant ecosystem you know
the result.
I think XML standalone do not resolve the issue. The real issues are
resolved by languages created from XML and if adequate API are provided
to developers. For instance, we actually have the DOM that make sense in
the context of statically typed languages like c or C++ but does not
make sense in dynamically type languages like ECMAScript. In the latter
it would be possible to create an object for each element and thus
satisfy the developers' requirement to be able to resolve problem with a
minimal set of constructs *remember the account.balance example). I
think that we embraced too much and some needs where left over, now we
pay the price.
Mike said:
I'm actually glad that XML is proving to be useful for application
integration, and only wish that it was being used here in an open
rather than essentially proprietary manner. Still, Simon's point that
this is utterly different from what "markup" was supposed to be
about is worth pondering. What do the needs of people who are using
XML for RPC-based application integration have to do with the needs
of people who are using it to build vendor/platform/application-neutral
documents?
Didier replies:
Unfortunately with the exception of some XML derived domain language and
most of the XML derived rendering languages, most of the XML
vocabularies/structures are in fact proprietary. What else can we expect
when we say it is set for the syntaxic level??
Mike said:
Is it reasonable for one organization to try to balance
those competing needs? I *do* happen to think so, and invest my
time with the W3C in hopes of seeing XML and the Web proved to be
useful for OPEN integration scenarios. [If Simon is Cassandra,
maybe I'm Pollyanna, but so be it.] Still, as Rick Jelliffe
mentioned in his reply in the ISO 8879 thread, the traditional
concerns of markup authors and document publishers are more
central to the ISO mission these days, so maybe that's where they
will be preserved. Simon himself seems to prefer the monastic
life remote from both, which I'm sure will be good for his
peace of mind.
Didier replies:
I think that the document people needs are better served actually with
ISO. The ATA doctype (based on SGML) is at least a doctype having the
necessary dimensions semantics/syntax/structure. We'll see real progress
on the document front when stuff like invoices, statement of account,
etc.. will be defined with a "standard" doctype/schema (and tutti quanti
flavor of the month W3/other organization's structure definition
language).
HTML is still the document type used mainly by the web content producers
and no XML derived language used to create documents made it to the
mainstream. Yes indeed, its not the fault of people who invested so much
efforts, its simply the network effect and what a critical mass can do.
We are several groups on earth sharing the same alphabet and we still
strive to understand each other. If XML is the equivalent of the
alphabet, then it is natural that people invent languages and other
usages based on it, and it is natural that we strive to understand each
other. It is the nature of the beast and what is happening is the
natural extension of the beast's nature.
Cheers
Didier PH Martin
[Sorry, but I love the parallel with A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ:
Uncontrolled technology leads to a Flame Deluge, followed by a
Great Simplification, with the Memorabilia of the markup age
preserved in the Abbey of St. Laurent in trust for a future
era that can appreciate it ... which will in turn pervert
that knowledge, leading to another uncontrolled
technology boom, leading to yet another Flame Deluge ...
Sic transit XML. <sickly grin> ]
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