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   RE: [xml-dev] Elliotte Rusty Harold on Web Services

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But many people would be happy with CSV with angle brackets as long as they got all the powerful off-the-shelf tools as well. <personal-opinion> If most of our users could get the following with CSV or S-expressions (I am such a broken record) I'm not sure they'd stick with XML besides the fact that it has been overhyped to death. I think this list of features would include 
 * Model Based APIs for in memory representation - CHECK [DOM]
 * Stream based APIs for fast processing - CHECK [Pull-based APIs, SAX]
 * Grammer languages for specifying valid content - CHECK [DTD, W3C XML Schema]
 * Query languages - CHECK [XQuery, XPath]
 * Ability to perform regexes against the structure of the content - CHECK  [XPath, XSLT]
 * Ability to create fairly human readable serialization - CHECK [XML 1.0 serialization, looks good in IE] </personal-opinion> 

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: Uche Ogbuji [mailto:uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com] 
	Sent: Sun 2/2/2003 8:09 AM 
	To: Dare Obasanjo 
	Cc: Mike Champion; elharo@metalab.unc.edu; xml-dev@lists.xml.org 
	Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Elliotte Rusty Harold on Web Services 

	> I assume Mike is talking about the fact that it is not possible to embed one well-formed document in another and still be conformant XML if the embedded document contains a prolog. One can resort to hacks to get around this (PIs or CDATA sections) but I assume some would rather have a "blessed" way of achieving this.
	Thanks.  I think this boils down to more "Use XML for what it's good at, and
	nothing more".  I used to run into the need to include one XML document in
	another often enough a long time ago.  I don't anymore because I've recognized
	that most cases where I want to do that are a matter of poor design.
	I don't know for sure whether the SOAP problem is poor design, though I do
	know that I would have designed an XML protocol over HTTP differently from
	SOAP.  But I do know that XML holds even more hazards for a naive use of XML
	in protocols.  There is the fact that so many characters are completely
	illegal, even in the form of character entities.  There is attribute
	normalization, and more.  Again, if we "solve" all these "problems" for WS, we
	end up with CSV-with-angle-tags.
	I prefer that XML makes us rethink protocols.  It already has for me (former
	big-time CORBA pusher), to my great gain.
	Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
	http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
	The open office file format  - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/librar
	Python Generators + DOM - http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/01/08/py-xml.html
	4Suite Repository Features - https://www6.software.ibm.com/reg/devworks/dw-x4su
	XML class warfare - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=6965


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