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   Re: [xml-dev] xml editors

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Bob Foster wrote:

> Robert Koberg wrote:
>  > Sjoerd Visscher wrote:
>  >
>  >>
>  >> You are exactly describing what Xopus does. (http://xopus.com)
>  >> Although the other suggested editors will work, Xopus is the *only*
>  >> editor that lets you use your existing publishing xslts for wysiwyg
>  >> editing.
>  >
>  >
>  > How is this possible? What if your transformation is lossy or adds
>  > things?-- How do you know what to roundtrip?
>  >
>  > Can you have multiple content pieces on a page? How do you know where
>  > content pieces are as opposed to page structure?
> I can't answer for Xopus (and I'd like to hear their answer), but 
> restricted cases are possible. The basic idea would be: In XSL every 
> input node and result/output node are uniquely numbered. For any input 
> text node that is copied directly to output without modification (or 
> with trivial idiomatic modifications like whitespace normalization), a 
> transitive 1-to-many correspondence could be established. If the user 
> modified an output node for which such a correspondence existed, the 
> input node and all other output nodes in correspondence with it could be 
> changed, as well.

Yea, thats my point. But the other person claimed you can use any old 
XSLT. I just don't see how it is possible -- no matter what. It is the 
same as compression for jpeg, mp3 or any other lossy compression--you 
simply cannot go back. You cannot take an MP3 and get it back to the 
same CD (or better) quality of the original. If a transformation adds 
something then the roundtripping has to be told what is not to be stored 
in the content.

> XSL is a Turing-complete language; you can easily write a stylesheet in 
> which there is no traceable correspondence between any input and output 
> nodes. But I guess this line of argument is good for Xopus, because the 
> arguments might keep others from trying to solve even the simple cases.

we (http://livestoryboard.com) have a custom browser-based, schema 
validating, ~wysiwyg~ editor in our CMS. Editors can edit individual 
content pieces (styled with CSS) or edit a page that contains several 
content pieces (page is mostly styled by XSLT and content areas are 
styled with CSS).

> The real question, I think, is when you do what you can do along these 
> lines, do you get a useful result? Don't know. It would depend a lot on 
> how people write their stylesheets.

yep, but that is not what the OP claimed.

>  > I think it is very wrong to have an XML editor edit an instance document
>  > based on the result of transforming that instance document.
> It's only wrong if it doesn't work. ;-}

I say it is simply impossible to use any old XSLT and be able to round 
trip XML.


> Bob Foster
> http://xmlbuddy.com/
>  > Or perhaps
>  > roundtripping rules needs to be setup for each transformation??? Or
>  > perhaps the transformations have to be done in a certain way??
>  >
>  > -Rob
>  >
>  >> Other editors use the limited possibilities of CSS or require you to
>  >> create a proprietary transformation for wysiwyg editing.


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