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   RE: RE: [xml-dev] XML Technologies: Progress via Simplification or Compl

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To the "Are they shy or simply not there yet?" point..

We are trying.. and we are bleeding pretty badly... a lot of this is still
"cutting edge" and the arguments are still swinging the pendulum quite a
distance... do we model for "widest usage of message" or do we model for
"closest to the object/data"?

We in the supply chain side of our work go for (1).. remember why EDI
started in the first place.. so I could accept POs from 1,000 clients and
NOT support 1,000 different messages and interfaces...   So, for this
effort, the format/content of the BUSINESS message is paramount.  And those
1,000 clients wouldn't put up with having to use a different format PO for
every vendor they wanted to deal with.

On the back-end system side, my developers drive us towards object based
messages.. and to me, as long as it is IN HOUSE, I'm fine with that.

On the front-end, Struts, .JSPs and XML/XSLT are helping quite a bit... I
think you can argue both sides... very RICH in power of presentation and
associated logic (like validation) and very "reach" in commonality across
the spectrum of clients.

So,  put me down for voting on "reach" of XML messages to the broadest of
audiences from the BUSINESS side of the house, and "rich" from the power of
the solution supporting the business.

Hmmm... did that help or just keep the debate going?


                      Didier PH Martin                                                                                             
                      <martind@netfolde        To:       "'Bullard, Claude L (Len)'" <len.bullard@intergraph.com>,                 
                      r.com>                    xml-dev@lists.xml.org                                                              
                      06/28/2004 11:27         Subject:  RE: RE: [xml-dev] XML Technologies: Progress via Simplification or Co     
                      AM                        mplexification?                                                                    
                      Please respond to                                                                                            

Hi Len,

This is not to disagree on you duck tape comment, but more to focus on the
paradigm shift part of the article (kuhn stuff).

From what I understand of the web today is that we simply returned to the
old "server centric" paradigm. The application per se is running on the
server and the client is barely more than a presentation client.

I like Macromedia comment about "reach" vs "rich". They say that in order
increase the "reach" we had to regress to "poor" clients. Conversely, in
before we got "rich" client and practically limited "reach". The next step
is simply to provide "rich" client applications able to "reach" as much
people as possible.

Going from a server centric world to a client-server or distributed
processing world is a paradigm shift. Thus, when web applications will be
running on the clients and servers will provide services, we can say that
the web got a paradigm shift.

The question is: will this era be based on:
Java/.net -----> XML -------> ECMAScript/XML/XHTML/SVG/SMIL


.net ---------> XML ----------> XAML

Probably on both.

Now about commoditization: I think it's quite obvious from the economic
perspective that open source by reducing the development costs to 0$, this
would lead to commoditized software goods. There are actually two main
drivers to bring the costs down and make the software cheaper to use.
a) Out-sourcing (reducing labor cost as was previously done in
b) Open source (where it's even cheaper because you don't pay the
Since software has no physical cost for transformation it has the potential
to be a lot cheaper to produce than hardware. This is even truer if
is produced for free. Can the cost=0$ a long run solution? I do not know
I hope to live long enough to see the end result. Two possible scenarios:
a) a new development paradigm bring the development efforts to a new level
above coding (The MDA goal)
b) developers put themselves out of the labor force or tremendously reduce
their workforce by producing goods for free.

I personally believe in (a) and hope that (b) will not happen (or at least
until other knowledge intensive work can replace it).

I do not hear anything from people trying to do model driven development
using XML technologies. Are they shy or simply not there yet? If yes, I
would like to hear what you do.


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