RE: [xml-dev] The year is 2027, and we need to examine archived XML docu

["Paul Kiel" <paul@xmlhelpline.com>]

In a way you are right.  Mbox (RFC 2822) is already a lowest common
denominator text format.  In my case, the requirement was already there for
Xml.  But also, there was a recognition that many flavors of Xml could be
used archivally (for items other than email).  To standardize on Xml (even
though the schemas that govern them are different) was the ultimate goal and
to not have to support RFC 2822 in addition to every other text format.  

If one understands xml, then learning another flavor of xml for a different
purpose is less overhead than having to read the 2822 spec from scratch for
each different kind of xml storage for example.

Not saying xml should replace 2822.  But you could imagine that the schema
for email would mirror the data model in 2822, so the difference is not as
much as you would think - at the end of the day.

Paul


-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen D. Williams [mailto:sdw@lig.net] 
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 10:08 AM
To: Paul Kiel
Cc: 'Rick Marshall'; 'Michael Champion'; xml-dev@lists.xml.org
Subject: Re: [xml-dev] The year is 2027, and we need to examine archived XML
documents from 2007 ...

Email seems like a special case.  Mbox is, and might stay, the 
definitive archival format for email.  I have all of my email going back 
at least since 1989 and it continues to be stored in mbox.  Most email 
storage on Unix/Linux is mbox and Mozilla/Thunderbird also uses mbox on 
the client.  The mbox format has been in use almost since RFC-822 was 
published.

There's nothing wrong with an XML version.  It should be easy to convert 
between mbox<->XML.  It should also be easy to have an XML view of mbox 
or vice versa.  This will be useful because there will probably be 
software that can still use mbox in 2027.

Why Microsoft Outlook and Exchange use such reported-to-be fragile 
formats for something so important is not clear.  I have over 30GB in my 
online email archive, reachable and searchable in seconds from any IMAP4 
client.  All mbox on ReiserFS.

It's not the text nature alone that makes it resilient.  I'm all for 
efficient, binary formats when done well (W3C EXI / my esXML 2.0) and 
within the proper architecture.

sdw

Paul Kiel wrote:
> Very interesting thread.  Before getting into the data integration space,
I
> was trained as an Archivist.  Indeed, the profession is has long been
> looking very closely at Xml as a long term storage format.
>
> In fact, I did some coding for the state of north Carolina to prototype
the
> conversion of email messages from the governor's office into Xml for
> archival storage.  So in 2027 (or 2927), all that is necessary to manage
> these files is to understand Unicode/ascii.  None of today's software is
> needed.
>
> And today, archivists use Xml for metadata about primary resource
materials.
> Their standard, called EAD (Encoded Archival Description) as been around
> since 1997 - and which was the spec that got me interested in Xml (or at
> least sgml until xml 1.0 came out the following year).  It isn't the
> archival storage format, but it is a metadata format and shows their
> interest in Xml.  It is only natural that they would see the value for
long
> term storage.
>
> 0.02 from a former archivist,
> Paul Kiel
>
>
>
>
> =====================================================
> W. Paul Kiel
> xmlHelpline.com Consulting
> paul@xmlhelpline.com
> work: 919-846-0224
> cell: 919-449-8801
> website: http://www.xmlhelpline.com
> Your helpline for data integration solutions.
> =====================================================
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Marshall [mailto:rjm@zenucom.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 9:52 PM
> To: Michael Champion
> Cc: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] The year is 2027, and we need to examine archived
XML
> documents from 2007 ...
>
> no because the archive must be complete without external reference and 
> it must not require execution of embedded code (eg javascript) - at 
> least to make an old hacker like me happy that the archive is what 
> someone saw/would have seen at the time it was created.
>
> Rick
>
> Michael Champion wrote:
>   
>> Wouldn't (X)HTML meet these requirements?
>>
>> */Rick Marshall <rjm@zenucom.com>/* wrote:
>>
>>     Hi
>>
>>     So, instead of fighting over ODF/OOXML which can survive with or
>>     without
>>     each other, perhaps ISO/W3C/OASIS/IETF etc should focus on a
>>     (possibly)
>>     XML based archive format for documents and data which preserves basic
>>     layout, links, binary objects (like jpg, avi, etc) as part of the
>>     format. Open Office and Microsoft can conform to Government
>>     requirements
>>     by having a "Save Archive" option.
>>
>>     All sorts of applications, not just office functions could target the
>>     archive format for long term storage and searching.
>>
>>     Rick
>>
>>     PS This is not a request to return to SGML, although it could once
>>     again
>>     be the starting point.
>>
>>     Richard Salz wrote:
>>     >> Should entities, Xinclude statements, and links be avoided in
>>     2007 if
>>     >> we wish for XML documents to be usable in 2027?
>>     >>
>>     >
>>     > The issue behind this question is not a fundamentally new one.
>>     Very few
>>     > documents exist apart from any context, and the legal systems
>>     know how to
>>     > deal with taht.
>>     >
>>     > /r$
>>     >
>>     > --
>>     > STSM, DataPower Chief Programmer
>>     > Websphere DataPower SOA Appliances
>>     > http://www.ibm.com/software/integration/datapower/
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>
>>     
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-- 
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Stephen D. Williams 703-371-9362C 703-995-0407Fax 20147 AIM: sdw


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