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Re: [xml-dev] XML's greatest cultural advantage over JSON

I noticed I might have seemed to contradict my own
argument there in that MS did facilitate (as far as I've
heard) AJAX but didn't push through to wide adoption
the XML Island technology (and didn't continue XSLT
support in IE beyond XSLT 1.0). I guess the difference
*might* be that, if it is true what I heard that AJAX was
for the sake of providing facilities to an online version
of Outlook, then that would more obviously generate
revenue (directly) than would IE. Plus interoperability
of IE wasn't likely to return assured revenue either.
Just a guess. So the answer might just lie in money and
ROI as being the reason XML succeeded outside of the
browser but less so within it.

Stephen D Green

On 29 April 2013 14:54, Stephen D Green <stephengreenubl@gmail.com> wrote:
XML adoption into other technologies (the ones typically paid
for in moderate or 'expensive' license fees, etc and used by
enterprises with the will to invest and consciousness of a likely
ROI) like RDBMSs was well championed by the sellers of
those technologies. It seems to me that browsers didn't have
such sellers who could adequately champion the adoption of
XML since they couldn't themselves see an ROI and couldn't
easily pass on the cost of the adoption. I don't think they would
have found the issues like 'hypermedia affordances' at all
insurmountable if they'd had the will or potential ROI to invest
in getting such things fixed. Afterall it was the like of MS who
invested in getting AJAX up and running and ensuring XML
was adequately specified by adopting early and providing the
contributions and feedback to the W3C XML WG(s) - along
with Sun and others who had big customers paying large sums.
Mere browsers didn't give such good returns perhaps so even
MS might have not put so much welly into getting the likes of
'XML islands' supported more widely (IMHO).

Stephen D Green

On 29 April 2013 14:35, Rushforth, Peter <Peter.Rushforth@nrcan-rncan.gc.ca> wrote:
MicroXML, like XML before it, failed to explicitly acknowledge the architecture of the Web, so
it will fail on the Web too, IMHO.  Failure on the web has little to do with namespaces, which
is the dominant 'problem' addressed by MicroXML.
If it had included simple hyperlinks, @href, @src, @type, @rel, it would have a better chance at
succeeding on the Web. 
But I think the major impediment to adoption on the Web is the browser, which plays nicely with
html/css, images and javascript but not with anything else.  So it is simply what Jirka identifies: developers
can use json-p across origins to get access to the data their applications demand, so XML is
as a result a non-starter. 
Funny thing, I only recently came across the SLink proposal and some commentary about it
from the browser crowd.    It seems that in the drive to eliminate 'application' semantics from
XML, the application called the Web was eliminated also.

From: Stephen D Green [mailto:stephengreenubl@gmail.com]
Sent: April 29, 2013 09:02
To: Jirka Kosek
Cc: Simon St.Laurent; xml-dev@lists.xml.org

Subject: Re: [xml-dev] XML's greatest cultural advantage over JSON

Just comparing the time it took for XML to be adequately
supported in RDBMSs and application frameworks like
.NET and Java and the time it has taken for it to be adequately
supported in Javascript (and browsers for that matter) and
you get the idea the latter have either been rather tardy or
have lacked strong user demand, or there has been some
other major blocker not suffered by RDBMSs and application
frameworks. It's probably too late to think that that will ever
be fixed. MicroXML doesn't seem to have made any impact
on the problem. Probably nothing will. (IMO of course)

Stephen D Green

On 29 April 2013 09:50, Jirka Kosek <jirka@kosek.cz> wrote:
On 28.4.2013 14:22, Simon St.Laurent wrote:

> XML had a chance with an open-minded crowd of people eager to embrace
> it.  By and large, we utterly failed to convince them.  Once other
> options emerged, they ran there.

I think that story is different. Javascript in browser doesn't have
usable XML API (DOM is simply ... DOM), but evaluating JSON with eval()
at that time was very easy (do you still remember E4X?). Also given the
browser security model you are unable to fetch cross-site XML resources,
but you can do the same with JSON-P. So with JSON it was possible to
walk around limitations in browser, nothing more. With better XML API in
browser and more reasonable security model situation between JSON/XML in
Web front-end development could be very different.


  Jirka Kosek      e-mail: jirka@kosek.cz      http://xmlguru.cz
       Professional XML consulting and training services
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