Re: [xml-dev] Is "markup" a noun or a verb? Do you "markup data" or "wr

[Robert Koberg <rob@koberg.com>]

On Sep 12, 2008, at 7:50 PM, Mark Shellenberger wrote:

>> Just thought of something that might hopefully clarify. Is this a  
>> tag?
>>
>> <br/>
>
> You got chocolate in my peanut butter!  You got peanut butter in my
> chocolate!
> It's a tag and an element.

No. It is an element. Pedantic language (according to the spec) does  
not really help. When supposedly technical people ask questions like:

"Does all the content have to be tagged with XML, because there's a  
lot of content that predates XML?"

What is the question asking? (use common understanding of the term  
rather than only the XML spec)

I would have to ask what do you mean by 'tagged with XML.'

Here is the answer from the MarkLogic CEO:

"The better the tags, the better the queries. If you want to find all  
documents that contain the words "bird strike," any text search engine  
can do that. If you want to find all documents that classify  
procedures related to approach, if all that is tagged, you can get a  
pinpointed result. Without tags, you may learn that somewhere in the  
300-page PDF are the words "bird strike." That's not very helpful.  
With the tags, you can increase the precision of searches and their  
granularity. "

Does this mean if you check a search that contains a set of key words,  
you find what you need? Does this mean you narrow your search with  
XPath?


>
>
>> So you are suggesting that "to tag" has now become a causality of
>> Web 2.0?
>> Wonderful.
>>
>> I really don't understand the jump you are taking
>
> Ugh, darn automatic spell checker...I meant to say casualty.

Perhaps it is. Things change.

-Rob

>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Koberg [mailto:rob@koberg.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 7:15 PM
> To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Is "markup" a noun or a verb? Do you "markup  
> data" or
> "wrap data in tags"?
>
> Just thought of something that might hopefully clarify. Is this a tag?
>
> <br/>
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
> On Sep 12, 2008, at 7:05 PM, Robert Koberg wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sep 12, 2008, at 6:47 PM, Mark Shellenberger wrote:
>>
>>> So you are suggesting that "to tag" has now become a causality of
>>> Web 2.0?
>>> Wonderful.
>>
>> I really don't understand the jump you are taking
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Robert Koberg [mailto:rob@koberg.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:35 PM
>>> To: Mark Shellenberger
>>> Cc: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
>>> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Is "markup" a noun or a verb? Do you "markup
>>> data" or
>>> "wrap data in tags"?
>>>
>>> This sounds right to me:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_(metadata)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 12, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Mark Shellenberger wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree that 'tagging' stuff seems a bit vulgar but it also gets
>>>> across the
>>>> message to those that need said message.  I make a point of showing
>>>> the
>>>> difference between element and tag in conversation regarding XML
>>>> because
>>>> those two terms have specific different meanings.
>>>>
>>>> But how are 'to markup' or 'to tag' (in the sense of XML/HTML)
>>>> different?
>>>> Or is it just a sensibility thing?
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Deborah Aleyne Lapeyre [mailto:dalapeyre@mulberrytech.com]
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 3:38 PM
>>>> To: xml-dev@lists.xml.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [xml-dev] Is "markup" a noun or a verb? Do you "markup
>>>> data" or
>>>> "wrap data in tags"?
>>>>
>>>> "Preferred" is such a slippery word. In my teaching experience
>>>> (no preference implied):
>>>>
>>>>> 1. I marked up the data.  - is the way the professionals in
>>>> this industry would say it. It sounds fine to most of us, but also
>>>> confuses many novices, even copyeditors.
>>>>
>>>>> 2, 3, and 4 are OK, but nobody talks like this in real life IMO
>>>>
>>>>> 5, 6, 7 have never been heard by me in the real world. I also
>>>> don't like them much (maybe I do have a preference after all)
>>>>
>>>> The great unwashed (i.e. professionals in some other business
>>>> than this Markup stuff) would, I think, mostly agree with Mark,
>>>> they "tag" their data.
>>>>
>>>> Overlap geeks have been heard to call it
>>>> "applying inline markup"
>>>>
>>>> ----------
>>>> Yes, Steve, I agree that "to mark up" is a verb, but
>>>> even "markup" the noun has problems.
>>>>
>>>> When Balisage wanted a subtitle to tell people what the
>>>> conference was actually about, we chose
>>>> "Balisage:The Markup Conference".
>>>> Sounded good to us, because we wanted to express that it was more
>>>> than "Balisage: The XML Conference" since it was perfectly
>>>> fine to talk about microformats, SGML, non-XML-based mashups
>>>> and clouds, out-of-line-markup, LMNL, etc. But it left a lot of
>>>> people wondering what the conference WAS about, and we have had
>>>> some very odd email reactions and a bunch of business types
>>>> who do not view the UBL and other tag-related things that
>>>> they do as "markup". Markup is for text, not data is some eyes.
>>>> Odd old world.
>>>>
>>>> --dal
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> =
>>>> =
>>>> = 
>>>> ===================================================================
>>>> Deborah Aleyne Lapeyre               mailto:dalapeyre@mulberrytech.com
>>>> Mulberry Technologies, Inc.                http://www.mulberrytech.com
>>>> 17 West Jefferson Street                    Direct Phone:
>>>> 301/315-9633
>>>> Suite 207                                          Phone:
>>>> 301/315-9631
>>>> Rockville, MD  20850                                 Fax:
>>>> 301/315-8285
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Mulberry Technologies: A Consultancy Specializing in XML, XSL, &
>>>> SGML
>>>> =
>>>> =
>>>> = 
>>>> ===================================================================
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
>>>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
>>>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>>>>
>>>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
>>>> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
>>>> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
>>>> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
>>>> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1668 - Release Date:
>>>> 9/12/2008
>>>> 6:56 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
>>>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
>>>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>>>>
>>>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
>>>> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
>>>> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
>>>> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
>>>> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1668 - Release Date:
>>> 9/12/2008
>>> 6:56 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
>>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
>>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>>>
>>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
>>> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
>>> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
>>> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
>>> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________________
>>
>> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
>> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
>> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>>
>> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
>> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
>> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
>> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
>> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1668 - Release Date:  
> 9/12/2008
> 6:56 AM
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
> to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
> spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.
>
> [Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
> Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe@lists.xml.org
> subscribe: xml-dev-subscribe@lists.xml.org
> List archive: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/
> List Guidelines: http://www.oasis-open.org/maillists/guidelines.php
>